Proof ethanol is bad for boats?

[scoutabout]

I've heard two marinas in my area are changing their fuel supply to premium unleaded, as apparently it's the only stuff that doesn't have ethanol in it (Shell Gold 94 octane) at least in this part of Canada. One of them, my Yamaha dealer, sent out a newsletter announcing the decision and stating that the higher price is worth it to avoid "serious engine damage" from continued use of ethanol fuels.

Anyone else encountering this? The FAQ section of Yamaha's website says if you have to run fuel with ethanol, go to a 10 micron water separating fuel filter, run fuel stabilizer all the time and ring-free regularly.

Is the fact the marinas would actually change to different fuel any kind of indication they know something we don't?

The thing that isn't discussed is that the octane rating is now far higher than is should be for most marine engines. I wonder if carbon build-up and other ills with the wrong octane are any more attractive than what might happen using ethanol.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Proof ethanol is bad for boats?

This crap makes me so darned mad I could spit nails. For gosh sakes we've been using corn squeezin's in Minnesota since 1997 and once more, it is not a problem. Your owners manual says its ok to use it. Very old engines that have gaskets and fuel system components that are not ethanol tolerant may have some issues. Chances are however, that if the fuel system has been maintained (carbs rebuilt, fuel lines and filters replaced, etc) there would be no issues since the replacement parts are ethanol tolerant. Neglected fuel systems will have issues but they would present problems down the road anyway. Yes, treat the fuel for long term storage. Yes -- install a water separating fuel filter (you should have one anyway). Otherwise, fill it up and go boating.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Proof ethanol is bad for boats?

+1.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: Proof ethanol is bad for boats?

There has been some degree of alcohol in fuel here for at least 20 years too, only the very old motors have any issues and that's rare.

As far as too high of an octane rating, the biggest concern would be possibly lower fuel economy or hard starting with lower compression.
Lower octane fuel is more volatile and therefore burns easier and more complete in a lower compression motor. Most outboards are what I would call low compression. I've had a few that really acted up on the better grades of fuel and went through fuel a good bit faster when I ran it.
I'd also have to look into whether or not the addition additives that they put in some premium fuel are really good for or worth while for a 2 stroke engine. Most of the additives needed for a two stroke come from the oil we add.

The only real concern with having alcohol in any fuel is that alcohol does have a lower boiling point, thus there can be a residual fuel pressure increase on very hot days. This usually only really affect fuel injected motors which rely on a particular pressure. I have not yet seen any such affects on an outboard.

A fuel filter is always a good idea, and a water separator even a better one, regardless of the fuel you run.

 

[F_R]

Re: Proof ethanol is bad for boats?

I have always stopped at the cheapest, closesest-to-the-ramp gas station I come to and fill with the cheapest regular unleaded gas they have, which always contains ethanol around here. Outside of some hardened gas hoses that got replaced years ago, I have not had a bit of fuel trouble. Nor any other motor trouble for that matter. Nor can I tell any difference between this or that gas. My 24 year old 35hp outboard doesn't burn enough gas to keep it "fresh" so it may sit for months. So where are all the supposed problems that I'm supposed to be experiencing?

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: Proof ethanol is bad for boats?

get this, i was i a lawn mower shop the other day. big sign above service desk,
"THE USE OF GAS WITH ETHANOL, VOIDS MANUFACTURERS WARRANTY" just a way they are ripping off the customer, probably charging customer, and getting paid for warranty work. i needed a part that day, from now on will do internet order, rather than supporting them.

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: Proof ethanol is bad for boats?

get this, i was i a lawn mower shop the other day. big sign above service desk,
"THE USE OF GAS WITH ETHANOL, VOIDS MANUFACTURERS WARRANTY" just a way they are ripping off the customer, probably charging customer, and getting paid for warranty work. i needed a part that day, from now on will do internet order, rather than supporting them.

Anything for a buck eh !!!!! paid by the customer and the manufacturer for the warranty work !!!!
Auto dealer near me was exposed and lost the dealership for the same thing about 5 years ago. Not about the type of gas but for charging the customer for warranty work and then charging back the manufacturer.

 

[scoutabout]

Re: Proof ethanol is bad for boats?

Thanks for the feedback guys. I had been ignoring the ethanol issue until I saw these marinas actually change their gas. I know the folks at both and they seem decent so I was having trouble chalking it up to nothing more than a cash grab. In this economy you don't want to be alienating your customer base!

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Proof ethanol is bad for boats?

And perhaps the marinas aren't doing a cash grab but rather attempting to protect themselves from customers who don't understand. If that particular area has a high population of older boats, E10 may cause some issues that are ignored until what started as a minor issue, creates a major one. A classic example is one clogged carb on a multi-cylinder engine. That cylinder runs lean and eventually burns up. Is the fuel to blame? Not in my view. The customer is to blame because he/she ignored a symptom. By changing the fuel, if the same problem occurs, the marina can say, "ain't our fault as we sell only non-ethanol fuel". Customers are always right even when they are wrong so one needs to be careful. I would be very leary of a repair facility that blames E10 for a problem before they have done any diagnostic work.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: Proof ethanol is bad for boats?

As usual, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing! Your marina is using scare tactics to some degree but in other aspects, it is a bit correct.

A boat owner usually will have no problems with ethanol containing fuels other than shorter service life on rubber parts which may not be designed to be alcohol resistant. Engines can be converted to run pure alcohol--goodness knows, racers have been doing it for years. Problem is that ethanol or methanol are very short, light molecules and if used pure or in high amounts, must be run much richer. Thus they get about 60-75 % of the mileage per gallon as gasoline. On the plus side, because they burn so much cleaner, alcohols deposit much less carbon in the engine.

The real problem is that alcohol can absorb water. It can absorb it until it undergoes what is called "Phase Separation." The alcohol/water mixture settles out of the gasoline. Alcohol will not mix with two cycle oils, however, the alcohol/water mixture will burn. The two cycle engine will pick up this oil free burnable mixture and run until damaged from lack of lubrication.

The other problem is that if you mix alcohol containing fuel with gasoline containing MBTE--(The other additive that is being phased out of production)--in the presence of water, a jell forms which will clog fuel lines, filters, pumps and carbs. On newer engines repairs can cost multiple hundreds to thousands of dollars.

SO: contrary to conventional wisdom, you store your boat over the winter with an empty tank rather than full. During the boating season, you pay particular attention to your gas tank to prevent condensation from forming. You use only one brand of fuel to ensure not mixing additives or use only fuel which is stated to contain ethanol. And use a large water separating filter.

Simple steps, really.

 

[ebry710]

Re: Proof ethanol is bad for boats?

Ethanol and MTBE are oxygenater used to decrease ozone, plus they are fuel extenders. In California they are mandated and have been used for years. My Johnson Service Manual (1989) and VRO2 pump allow for the use of ethanol below 10%. Fuel stabilizers help keep water in solution and most people here are told to fill their tanks after running their engines.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Proof ethanol is bad for boats?

Ethanol and MTBE are oxygenater used to decrease ozone, plus they are fuel extenders. In California they are mandated and have been used for years.

MTBE has not been in use for a while now. When the reports surfaced tof MTBE contaimination of the ground water the oil companies stopped shipping product containing MTBE fearing law suits.

 

[ebry710]

Re: Proof ethanol is bad for boats?

MTBE has not been in use for a while now. When the reports surfaced tof MTBE contaimination of the ground water the oil companies stopped shipping product containing MTBE fearing law suits.

Yes, MTBE was found to blow by seals in fuel systems and tanks. It does not breakdown quickly in the groundwater. But, both chemicals are oxygenators and if one is taken off the market, then in California the other has to be used. California discontinued use of MTBE in 2003 (I had to goggle that tidbit of knowledge, thank you for your insight). With MTBE out of the picture then California (smog areas, SF, LA, etc) has been on a ethanol diet since 2003.

 

[mbanko17]

Re: Proof ethanol is bad for boats?

First of all, I just talked to a Exxon tanker guy while he was refueling a station.I was refueling my truck with diesel. I asked him about ethanol. He said they don't use it YET. Thank god. BUT, he told me if he had gas with 10% ethanol in his tanker, the seals would need to be replaced every 2 months. Normal gas with 1% ethanol, the seals last for 20 years. Its like mixing oil with water the ethanol will sink to the bottom.
I have 2 old 2 stroker motors that ran great until I used gas with ethanol. TREE HUGGERS SUCK! My 2002 jeep even runs like ****. I don't get it. EVERTHING IS MADE OF OIL! GET REAL PEOPLE!!!!!!!!DRILL IN THE USA!!!!!!

 

[Barnacle_Bill]

Re: Proof ethanol is bad for boats?

Been using it for over 10 years now. Only known problem was with some Merc check valves which they say ethanol causes them to curl up.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: Proof ethanol is bad for boats?

What it boils down to is that alcohol deteriorates rubber parts, that said, all modern fuel systems use no rubber parts. All manufacturers have switched to plastics, and other alcohol resistant materials.

The change over to these materials in most motors came about in the late 70's and early 80's.

Fiberglass tanks made prior to about 1991 may also be suspect. If it were my boat, I'd toss any fiberglass tank regardless of year.

Alcohol can cause corrosion on some parts, this is minimal if not non existent in an outboard with premix as the oil in the fuel will coat and lube parts, and newer motors can withstand as much as 10% alcohol mix.

Years ago we ran Methanol in race cars, the main concerns we had was pump seals failing and pump hoses failing at the filling station, problems in the cars were limited to minor corrosion problems in steel carburetor components and some fuel line hardening.

Both ethanol and methanol absorb and retain water, it is important to keep your tank either full and clean as well as use a good water separator.

I have run several of my trucks at times on methanol just to get rid of last years race fuel, often as much as 50% or more. Its fine in the summer but hard to start in the summer and it will reduce power. It also requires a richer mixture to maintain proper burn rate.
Alcohol has a higher octane than does gas, but is less volatile. It makes less power and gets far less fuel economy vs. pure gasoline. It does burn cleaner.
Running higher percentages of alcohol may also require a lubricity additive for valves in four stroke motors.
The only big change we may want to heed is to not store our boats with fuel in the tank on the off season so as to avoid both corrosion from moisture and moisture absorption by the fuel. If you can't drain or run out the tank, fill it completely and add a stabilizer.

My biggest complaint about having alcohol in fuel is the reduction of economy, other than that there's little change with any modern boat or motor.

 

[gss036]

Re: Proof ethanol is bad for boats?

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=267299
Read this and look at the filters on the Honda Forum and then tell us what you think.

 

[ebry710]

Re: Proof ethanol is bad for boats?

Read this and look at the filters on the Honda Forum and then tell us what you think.

When I was looking at the Honda 90, I thought the brochure said it was a modified Honda Civic engine. Either way, Honda has a lot of experience with 4 cycles and alcohol mixed fuels. Again, even Johnson/Evinrude says you can run their late 80's engines with 10% ethanol. I do not know what the big deal is.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: Proof ethanol is bad for boats?

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=267299
Read this and look at the filters on the Honda Forum and then tell us what you think.

If you have that type of corrosion in your fuel tank, the kind where you need to be concerned with ethanol dissolving the corrosion, the tank is shot anyhow. I wouldn't blame the fuel for a bad tank or lack of maintenance.
On my only boat with an aluminum tank, I run premix so it's never going to be an issue and I keep the tank full. The 2 stroke oil helps keep the tank pretty corrosion proof and when I installed it, I epoxy dipped the exterior to prevent any exterior corrosion.
My other boats all have plastic tanks.
Chances are any older boat used in saltwater will need new tanks after 5 to 10 years either way, I don't see where the fuel is the cause. I also wouldn't hang a brand new motor and not start fresh with new tanks, especially if I know there's corrosion in the tank.