"Play & Binding" on outdrive propeller

[alandon]

Hi all,
I'm new, m interested in a 2001 (240 engines hrs) boat with twin volvo penta 5.7 GI/SX. Sent out a surveyor to inspect. His observation below:

Port outdrive propeller has fore and aft as well as right to left "play" to the spline drive shaft. I also detected a slight binding of the shaft at one point when the propeller was turned by hand.

The owner insisted that some "play" is perfectly normal for a 10 years old boat.
Will this outdrive be bogged down soon or will it still last another couple of years.
What do you guys think? Please advice

ciao

 

[Bondo]

Re: "Play & Binding" on outdrive propeller

Ayuh,... A tiny bit of fore, 'n aft play is pretty much normal...
Side to side play is a sign of impending Failure....
It might run for another year,..... or for a few seconds....

 

[muc]

Re: "Play & Binding" on outdrive propeller

in/out play on an SX is bad. they use a tapered roller bearing and need to have preload.

 

[alandon]

Re: "Play & Binding" on outdrive propeller

Hi guys,

Thanks for the response. Indeed weird for a 320 engine hrs pristine boat to have such a "play & binding" on the drive. Either she has many more hours than 320 or rough WOT all the time or ?.....
I should reconsider the deal.

Merry Xmas to all of you.

 

[alandon]

Re: "Play & Binding" on outdrive propeller

Sorry mistyped 240 not 320 engine hrs

 

[alandon]

Re: "Play & Binding" on outdrive propeller

Hi Bond-O and muc,
Need your help again. Is it possible to have 2 different model engines installed in a boat? The boat in question has: starboard engine is a 1999-2000 built 5.7 GSI PEFS whereas port engine is 2000-2001 built 5.7 GI-A.
I checked against the Volvo Penta databases, both engines seem sharing the same block but slight difference in configuration.

5.7GSI PEFS: compression ratio 9.41:1 Max engine speed (rpm) 4600-5000
5.7GI-A: compression ratio 9.4:1 Max engine speed (rpm) 5000

Does installation of non identical engines impact the behaviour of the boat?

thks

 

[Bondo]

Re: "Play & Binding" on outdrive propeller

Hi Bond-O and muc,
Need your help again. Is it possible to have 2 different model engines installed in a boat? The boat in question has: starboard engine is a 1999-2000 built 5.7 GSI PEFS whereas port engine is 2000-2001 built 5.7 GI-A.
I checked against the Volvo Penta databases, both engines seem sharing the same block but slight difference in configuration.

5.7GSI PEFS: compression ratio 9.41:1 Max engine speed (rpm) 4600-5000
5.7GI-A: compression ratio 9.4:1 Max engine speed (rpm) 5000

Does installation of non identical engines impact the behaviour of the boat?

thks

Ayuh,... I'm probably wrong above, 'n muc is probably right,...
I applied Mercruiser thoughts to yer Volvo...

Let me get Don into this,...
He knows these Volvos really well....

Btw,... Yer story sounds awfully Suspicious to me,...
2 different motors is a Red Flag, along with the binding drive...

 

[billbayliner]

Re: "Play & Binding" on outdrive propeller

in/out play on an SX is bad. they use a tapered roller bearing and need to have preload.

I would agree.

The Merc A lower drive unit prop shaft is somewhat floating and you can feel the normal end play.
The V/P SX prop shaft and driven gear are set by tapered roller bearings as muc said, and should be under pre-load and should not show any lateral play... like an automotive ring/pinion set.
If it does, something is wrong and the seller needs to be convinced of this.
If the seller is willing and concerned, as he should be, pull the prop shaft and take a look inside.

The binding may be a bent prop shaft that would need to be fixed or replaced.
Also, when the prop shaft is spun, so is the vertical shaft and upper unit sliding sleeve (aka cone).
The eccentrically machined shift shoe groove rides against the shift shoe. You may be feeling this as it comes around...... pretty normal.

If it can be felt in a 1:1 with the prop shaft, it's probably a bent prop shaft.
If it can be felt more in line with ratio between the two lower gears, it's the sliding sleeve groove and shift shoe.

 

[alandon]

Re: "Play & Binding" on outdrive propeller

Ok thks Bond-o, will wait for Don's opinion

 

[alandon]

Re: "Play & Binding" on outdrive propeller

Thks a lot Bill for your detailed tech explanation. It's a Ratio: 1.5:1

 

[billbayliner]

Re: "Play & Binding" on outdrive propeller

It's a Ratio: 1.5:1

What I meant by 1:1 ratio, would be if you spun the prop shaft, and if the binding was noticed in the same spot each time.... it would be 1:1 with the prop shaft.
A possible bent prop shaft.
If it's not 1:1 with the prop shaft, then it's through the reduction of the two gears and is further up the vertical shaft where the sliding sleeve is in the upper unit.

I think that the prop shaft carrier needs to be removed so you can look inside and find out why this play is there.
It may be a bargaining tool towards the purchase.


One other thought... the surveyor obviously caught this.
But since he did not recommend pulling the carrier, he may not fully understand what this play indicates and may not be up to speed on the mechanical part of this drive.
I think he should have known right off the bat what this means.

 

[alandon]

Re: "Play & Binding" on outdrive propeller

Misunderstood the ratio 1:1 meaning. Bill, I would certainly love to look inside and unveil the culprit, unfortunately the boat is in US and I'm currently living on the other edge of the planet.
Moreover, deal thru broker and time is depleting, acceptance/rejection clause expires in 3 days as stipulated in the pre-purchase agreement. I gotta decide fast or else bye to the 10% deposit. Even with flaws as "bargaining tool" am I still sitting on a risky business? still wondering. A dilemma though!!!
I have to wait for Don's opinion on the non-ident engines issue.

 

[Don S]

Re: "Play & Binding" on outdrive propeller

Port outdrive propeller has fore and aft as well as right to left "play" to the spline drive shaft. I also detected a slight binding of the shaft at one point when the propeller was turned by hand.

Was the play between the prop and the prop shaft of the drive? or the prop shaft it self having play in the lower unit. The latter would be a serious problem, the former could be the prop not being tightened down properly or the wrong spacer. The prop needs to come off and inspect the shaft itself and the prop. The binding may be the prop rubbing the housing.

Need your help again. Is it possible to have 2 different model engines installed in a boat? The boat in question has: starboard engine is a 1999-2000 built 5.7 GSI PEFS whereas port engine is 2000-2001 built 5.7 GI-A.

The PEFS engine may be OEM and it may have had problems in the first year and replaced. If the engines and drives were properly registered, a Volvo dealer could look up and see what was original and see if one was replaced under warranty. You will need the engine and outdrive serial numbers, along with the hull ID number of the boat to find out for sure.

 

[alandon]

Re: "Play & Binding" on outdrive propeller

Hi Don, appreciate your intervention. Survey report data came in form of droplets due to xmas/new year festive period. I think the play came from lower unit prop shaft and engines serial # not apparent.

Latest droplet from surveyor below for the drive & engines: (flaws seem worsen !!!!)

Damages:
======
a.) 1/2” diameter, half circle chip, located at the top of the trailing edge of the skeg where the skeg
meets the bottom of the propeller shaft gear case

b.) the ends of the wrist pins on both sides of the outdrive to which the hydraulic tilt cylinders are
attached have been damaged and deformed by the apparent result of being struck repeatedly by a
hammer. The originally installed wrist pin external snap rings are missing.

c.) when the port outdrive propeller was turned slowly by hand, the propeller shaft turned freely until at
one point (example between the 4 o’clock and 5 o’clock position) a slight resistance was felt. The
resistance was accompanied by a slight abrasive sound emanating from the lower horizontal gear
case. The shaft appeared to turn “true”.

d.) excessive fore and aft, as well as vertical “play” between the propeller and the shaft spline was noted
when the propeller was turned and lifted.

e.) the “guide” on inboard side of lower unit (used to control and eliminate excessive movement
between the outdrive case and the gimbel steering) was missing

MAIN ENGINES
==========
Make: Volvo Penta
Engine “production period” (port) 2000-2001
(starboard) 1999-2000
Year rebuilt: N/A
Installation: Twin engine, outdrive
Model number as found on engines: (p) 5.7GI-A (s) 5.7GSI PEFS

Based on the review of the survey findings and observation, available engine information and engine numbers, indicate that two different, 5.7 Volvo production series engines are installed in the boat.
Serial number: Not apparent; not observed
Horsepower: 280

Fuel type: Gasoline
Backfire flame arrester: Installed and serviceable

Engine hours: (p) Reported to be a “new” gauge; 57.7 hours as appearing on the engine hour meter
(s) Reported to be the “original” gauge; 138.5 hours as appearing on the engine hour
meter


The following “pre-start” observations were made:
===============================
Engine lube oil: Normal color and within operational range (Castrol Syntec, 5w/50, full synthetic oil)

The following engine “run” observations were made:
================================
The port and starboard engines started without excessive cranking and water-cooling flow appeared to be normal. The port engine exhaust was “clear”. There was a noticeable but very slight blue exhaust from the port engine with the engine at idle; after “warm up” and with the engine operating above 1,000 RPMs the exhaust appeared “clear”. Both the port and starboard engines exhibited “misfiring” and “rough” running from idle speed through approximately 1400 RPMs. The port engine oil pressure at start-up was noted to be approximately 40 pounds at the helm engine gauge; the oil pressure remained almost constant throughout the range of RPMs (idle to 4000 RPMs). The starboard engine oil pressure ranged from 40 to 60 pounds as the engine speed increased to 4000 RPMs.

 

[Don S]

Re: "Play & Binding" on outdrive propeller

You're the one buying the boat, go look at it yourself and see what's moving on the prop shaft.. While you're there, get the serial numbers and HIN (Hull ID number).

b.) the ends of the wrist pins on both sides of the outdrive to which the hydraulic tilt cylinders are
attached have been damaged and deformed by the apparent result of being struck repeatedly by a
hammer. The originally installed wrist pin external snap rings are missing.

Sounds like this is a salt water boar. Those pins do get corroded on when the drives don't get removed for many years for maintenance.

Like I said before, if the propshaft has all the play, you are probably looking at a few thousand dollars for repair or replacement of the lower if that is all that is wrong.

 

[Bondo]

Re: "Play & Binding" on outdrive propeller

Moreover, deal thru broker and time is depleting, acceptance/rejection clause expires in 3 days as stipulated in the pre-purchase agreement. I gotta decide fast or else bye to the 10% deposit.

Ayuh,... might be time to withdraw the deposit, 'n keep lookin'....

The market is still a Buyer's market... Lotsa boats out there....

 

[alandon]

Re: "Play & Binding" on outdrive propeller

Yap, saltwater boat. Agree with Don that pins can corrode away, but hammer marks! errr...... seem like the drive was once repaired by an iron smith. "Quelle dommage", despite the abso pristine apparence. I believe she's rotted inside out. I won't give a damn for the tv,fridge,stove or microwave owen malfunctions, but the power drives, that's another story. Slight blue smoke at startup, Running rough and misfire at low rev (could be ignition issue or lube oil fouled plugs), stagnant oil pressure on port engine (could be sticky valves,gasket or worn piston rings), Non-identical engines mounted, Play & bind & hammered prop unit shaft. Beautiful nightmare !!!

Now the ball is on my side and I think it would be wise to follow Bond-o philosophy and wisedom.

Thks guys, I'll be back soon, happy new year and all the best for 2012

 

[Don S]

Re: "Play & Binding" on outdrive propeller

Agree with Don that pins can corrode away, but hammer marks! errr......

They won't corrode away, they are stainless steel. The corrosion builds up between the trim cylinder and the pin. They freeze up and people try to hammer them apart. That in itself tells me there has been no maintenance done to the splined shaft in the coupler. The drive should come off yearly to grease the splines. I would estimate 5 years if it won't come apart. Probably can't get the drive off the bellhousing either.
Plenty of time before spring to find a good boat.

 

[alandon]

Re: "Play & Binding" on outdrive propeller

Alrite, that explains the neccessity of using a hammer instead of a spanner.
I was wondering why the owner allowed someone to bang on his >200k dollars (when bought new) boat
with a hammer, illogic! Now I understand better. Thks Don