Outboard wont turn... WINTER's here!

[mikeytino]

Hello,
I've got a Nissan 70.
First thing, the motor wouldn't start. It ran great all season but when time came to pull it out a couple weeks ago, it wouldn't turn fast enough to start.
The Starter spins, makes contact with the flywheel, and just doesn't get the engine going.
I've tried jumping it with my car running, then with another battery, and then with a plug in starter... no dice.
I've cleaned the contacts on the battery end.
I've heard about connecting the battery direct to starter, but I cannot find the solenoid nor the contacts on the starter, so am not too comfortable about messing with that.

Anyway, it's out of the water now sitting in the yard. Since I cannot start it, I cannot properly winterize.
To make matters worse, the hydraulics on the tilt have been stuck down for a while, and the lower unit was sitting in the salt water for 2 months.

It's getting really cold out there and I'm worried.
Any thoughts?

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Outboard wont turn... WINTER's here!

Take it into a dealer. It sounds like you are out of your depth on diagnosing the problem(s) and it is likely you will end up making the problem(s) worse.

 

[gary - k7gld]

Re: Outboard wont turn... WINTER's here!

Sounds like a good argument for the freer-flowing and far less climate sensitive synthetics lube fluids some here resist streniously...

Ultimately, users like this lead poster need solutions they can reliably use themselves as needed - not just simply pointers towards a dealer or service manual every time a problem goes farther than the basic and routine!

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Outboard wont turn... WINTER's here!

"Sounds like a good argument for the freer-flowing and far less climate sensitive synthetics lube fluids some here resist strenuously...

Ultimately, users like this lead poster need solutions they can reliably use themselves as needed - not just simply pointers towards a dealer or service manual every time a problem goes farther than the basic and routine!"

Your correct. So please impress us all and explain to him the exact procedures he needs to follow to determine what systems are involved, what parts have failed and then how to replace those parts. I'll even give you a hint....It has nothing to to with lubricants.

 

[gary - k7gld]

Re: Outboard wont turn... WINTER's here!

I'll even give you a hint....It has nothing to to with lubricants.

Perhaps a inoperative compression release for starting - if that model has one?

BUT, you see, *I* am not the one NEEDING advice - and if you think YOU have an appropriate tidbit to offer, why not OFFER it instead of playing guessing games, or the catch-all "take it to a dealer" cop out?

See, not EVERYONE lives near a dealership - or has the original shipping container to properly ship one to where there IS a dealer - my own closest dealership for my outboard is a 275 mile round trip. Then, there's the shipping cost involved in those cases, plus being at the mercy of a long-distance "expert", who may, or may not be honest or actually know what he's doing - all while YOU the customer are way too many miles away to make an informed decision on a realistic course of action.

And what about the guy with a similar issue - but 10 miles up the creek, and nowhere NEAR a "dealer" - perhaps that tidbit YOU may be able to offer would help avoid some other user being stranded from a similar cause?

Fact is, LOTS of guys traveling to boards like this, are here for a single and (to them!) unusual situation - and are looking for a similarly SINGLE bit of helpful info, either from that service manual someone else already has - or from another user who has already experienced a similar issue, and has (and will PROVIDE!) the appropriate answer...

Personally, *I* thought that was - like other similar boards I am involved and participate in - the basic PURPOSE of THIS board - not merely on simple and basic trivial issues for raw mechanical beginners.

A "Guru" who hoards the helpful onfo others are in need of and asking for, carefully passing out only small and elusive tidbits is really only of quite limited use and value - if you ARE a "Guru", why not actually PROVIDE the replies to questions asked, instead of playing guessing games and offering pointers to manuals and dealers that may be way off the practical for many questioners? Then, let the QUESTIONER decide what next avenue of action will work best in their specific case...

For a fair number of us, the tired old "take it to a dealer", or "buy and refer to the service manual", is neither the reasonable OR practical answer - and IF that is the basic underlying attitude and response of the majority of "experts" here, many of us are wasting our time asking questions here!

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Outboard wont turn... WINTER's here!

Thank you for explaining that you do not have a clue about helping the man find his problem or how to repair it or even where to start. I also want to thank you for pointing out that you are what is wrong with Internet. Know-it-nothings, like yourself, who take cheap shots with no penalty. The web is populated with people like yourself....And iboats seems to be getting an increasing number of them. You jump in, post some inane nonsense, then feel superior about it. Guess what chump? I've had enough of your mouth. You don't have clue about things mechanical and lack enough sense to know how ignorant you truly are. I could almost forgive that. But, your arrogance about your own stupidity is inexcusable, much less your unwarranted criticism of me. I help people down a path. That's it. If conceited fools like yourself can do better, DO IT. Otherwise shut up and go beat your wife.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Outboard wont turn... WINTER's here!

Well said TG. And for you Gary, there is a reason we recommend that anyone wishing to perform their own service do one of two things 1) buy a service manual specific to your engine, or 2) if you are uncomfortable doing nearly anything on the engine, you are well advised to seek the professional help from a service agency. This poster clearly stated he is not comfortable "jumping" things and since he can't seem to find the solenoid or the cable connections on the starter, he is being very wise. If one is not confident with even routine service, studying a service manual will eventually provide you with a reasonable amount of knowledge so that you can do some of these procedures and troubleshoot certain problems. Performing "mechanical" procedures requires a pair of eyes, a few tools, and a reasonable understanding of how things work. Electrical troubleshooting requires tools/instruments that few people have or understand how to use.

 

[mikeytino]

Re: Outboard wont turn... WINTER's here!

Wow.
Ok, first I just want to thank ALL of you (and I do mean ALL) for your initial replies.
That said, I had no idea that this would create a stir and would like to turn the conversation back to a cooperative discussion -- if you'd like to participate.
Same team guys, the Internet has bigger problems than some guys who are in disagreement about boats (which we are lucky to have).

It is important that I get different opinions.
I did buy this boat for a steal and want to learn as much as possible without destroying the darn thing. The only way to learn is by doing much of the time.
However, it's my baby and I will call a tech if needed - but wanted to be sure it's the last draw.

To me, the most valuable information has always been some stories from other owners with similar probs and how THEY fixed it.

From there, I will make a decision on how to resolve it - and share with the group.

Thank you all.


I should add that I am willing to do mechanical and electrical work (my dad and I are well versed) and the engine is a NSD70B

 

[mikeytino]

Re: Outboard wont turn... WINTER's here!

 

[pvanv]

Re: Outboard wont turn... WINTER's here!

You kids need to play nice, or Mom will find out, and there will be trouble in River City...

Mikey, your TLDI shouldn't suffer from cold, as long as it is stored upright, unless there is water in the LU -- so I'd be sure to drain/refill the LU. Also, as it does have some oil in the crankcase (being a 2-stroke), you have some time before rust will be an issue. Hopefully you have been running a good gas stabilizer in the fuel (always a good idea at any time). If so, the gas should not varnish up for a few months of off-season storage.

As for fogging and other winterizing chores, well, even though there's no emergency, it would still be a good idea to get it squared away. A (free to download from http://www.internetoutboards.com/PartsCatalogMenu.htm) parts catalog is a good starting point, and it never hurts to own a service manual, available from any Tohatsu/Nissan dealer. Then you can diagnose and troubleshoot the cranking problem. As TG mentioned, if you get in over your head, drop by a dealer. They will usually offer advice, in addition to being equipped to correct the cranking problem.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Outboard wont turn... WINTER's here!

Here are a few things you can try:
1) Although you cleaned the battery cables, did you clean both ends. If you did, the other end of the red battery cable is attached to the starter solenoid. If you didn't, the problem may still be at that end.
2) Check the battery cable terminals very carefully where the cable enters the terminal. Any signs of corrosion represents high resistance and hence slow cranking. Replace the cable ends or the entire cable.
3) Pull the spark plugs and try turning the engine by hand. If it feels like it is dragging, there may be an internal problem.
4) Since you now know where the starter solenoid is, using one jumper cable, jump from BATTERY POS to the large terminal on the starter solenoid that leads to the starter (not the one the has the battery cable on it). If the starter now spins freely you may have a bad solenoid or bad battery cable. If that doesn't help, I would jump directly to the starter. If that doesn't help, you likely need some starter work.
5) A tight bearing in the lower unit can cause slow/no engine cranking but you would need to pull the lower unit to prove or disprove that.

As was pointed out, lubricants are not the issue.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Outboard wont turn... WINTER's here!

This engine is probably an 18 year old, pre-mix, 2 cylinder, 70 hp and not a TLDI. As such, it is likely that any repair will exceed the value of the engine. IE Repalcing a dragging starter might be worth it(at $400.00 I wouldn't). Touching the internals of the block would be a complete waste of time as parts are no longer available for that. Be Careful...This engine, at this point in it's life , is a money pit.

 

[mikeytino]

Re: Outboard wont turn... WINTER's here!

Great stuff, and I think we're getting there.
I have a feeling that there's some corrosion on the cable from the battery to the switch then to the engine... because it began to heat up like crazy today before I disconnected the jumper cables from the battery...

The engine is a NSD70B from 2002/2003 - it is a TLDI.

This is great - thank you all..
As I said before - the best way to learn is by doing... and I am certainly learning a ton already, even if I end up taking this thing to a dealer... I love troubleshooting.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Outboard wont turn... WINTER's here!

I stand corrected Please tell me you have service manual for this engine as the tach is designed to send codes that will tell you what is wrong.

 

[mikeytino]

Re: Outboard wont turn... WINTER's here!

I only have the owners manual and parts catalog - so no I do not, however I will buy one ASAP.
InternetOutboards.com is a fantastic site by the way.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Outboard wont turn... WINTER's here!

Thank you...I would advise you to stop working with the engine until you get the manual. It's detailed and consumer oriented for that model. You can continue to play doctor from the battery up through the starter as that is not any different than any other engine design. If the cables are getting hot you have a dead short or resistance. Seven year old cables in a salt environment can build up resistance and rob the starter of the current it needs to do it's thing. Number 4 in Silvertip's list is the where you should focus for now.

Don't touch the trim until you get a manual.

 

[grego]

Re: Outboard wont turn... WINTER's here!

Try pull starting, If engine turns fairly easy in neutral. "starter or solonoid".

 

[mikeytino]

Re: Outboard wont turn... WINTER's here!

Just wanted to update you all on the status of this.
The problem here was corrosion in the power cables going from the battery to the engine.
Got new cables and it started up with no problems - running great all summer!