Old Geyser Needs Help

[njlarry]

How much throtle do you give to get a skier started? I haven't skied in over 15 years but at over 50 still feel active enough. Yet the tow rope was pulled from hands on every try. I forgot to use a baseball-bat grip but never did before anyway. The driver was accelerating to about 2500 to 3000 rpms. The tow boat is 190 hp, 20' and a 15x17 prop which is about 4 inches less pitch than a cruise prop.
Any suggestions? (other than duck tape which was my next step)
Thanks.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Old Geyser Needs Help

How much throtle do you give to get a skier started? I haven't skied in over 15 years but at over 50 still feel active enough. Yet the tow rope was pulled from hands on every try. I forgot to use a baseball-bat grip but never did before anyway. The driver was accelerating to about 2500 to 3000 rpms. The tow boat is 190 hp, 20' and a 15x17 prop which is about 4 inches less pitch than a cruise prop.
Any suggestions? (other than duck tape which was my next step)
Thanks.

Hmmmm, I'm 55 but I'm in very good shape. I weigh about 210 lbs n' ski on a very agressive early 1990s state of the art (at that time) ski.

I prefer 'flyin' dock starts 'cause I hate to get wet, but after showin' off fer youngins' I may fall from time to time n' may have ta do a deep water start. I prefer maximum power, so the boat operator always puts her to the wall n' I come up like a cork.

Sounds like you should exercize yer grip. I ski behind old Merc inline 6s on fairly light boats with very little wake. The hole shots of all my higher power boats are fierce, (notorious 'tower of power' hole shots), and I feather the throttle fer first time skiiers on two skis or I pull the rope out of their hands. You may wish to try getting up on two n' then dropin' one. Good luck!! JR

 

[terrygar]

Re: Old Geyser Needs Help

Hello, I just turned 61 and I want to go skiing again. I'm fit a ride mtn and road bikes here in Tahoe daily. I will go with 2 skis first and drop one later, I think the pull speed is 30mph, am I right?

Falling at 30 is tuff on the body, so I will ride 2 skies until I can get back on my old JOBE slalom.
Terry

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Old Geyser Needs Help

Hello, I just turned 61 and I want to go skiing again. I'm fit a ride mtn and road bikes here in Tahoe daily. I will go with 2 skis first and drop one later, I think the pull speed is 30mph, am I right?

Falling at 30 is tuff on the body, so I will ride 2 skies until I can get back on my old JOBE slalom.
Terry

That Jobe will want 33-35 MPH, or ya sink too much on the turns, (depending on yer body weight), n' hopefully a boat with very little wake n' flat calm water that yer cuttin' up!!! Wear a wet suit n' life jacket to cushion from any potential fall!! Good Luck! JR

 

[OhWellcraft]

Re: Old Geyser Needs Help

Getting up seems to be such a personal thing to most but there are a few things you might want to try. First and formost invest in a good pair of ski gloves, some are even designed to help with your problem. Good gloves aren't cheap but your hands will be glad you did at the end of the day. Second if possible keep your arms fully extended when you say hit it that way it doesn't yank your arms out followed by the rope. Do you drag a foot or are both feet in at take off. If you have ever drug a foot it can really make a big difference in how easy you come out of the water. You can actually kick that leg as you are coming out it keeps you more in line and helps you come out easier. If none of that helps try the advise above the grip excercisers work very well and is something you can do anywhere, driving, laying in bed, watching tv, etc keep at it and results will come quick. I have also heard of people using a one foot long piece of broom handle attached to brick(s) with rope and you wind the rope onto the handle. Like you are twisting the throttle on a motorcycle type motion. As your strength increases you can add bricks if need be. use field bricks with the three holes in them and a washer if needed to keep the rope from pulling through. Good luck I am glad to hear you still have that desire that only a good pass on a slalom ski can fulfill. I go every weekend and it never gets old for me. Don't get too caught up on what the speedo says go with what is comforatable to you and progress from there. The faster you go the more it hurts when you eat it, also the pros are only going 34-36 mph....

 

[njlarry]

Re: Old Geyser Needs Help

Thanks for the great suggestions! Glad you can ski so frequently.
I my have had my arms too bent. The boat has some fast acceleration. I have at least an average grip. I was also wondering for pulling other skiers how fast I should accelerate to make it easier for them?
I am using two skis and 20-30 mph is the speed range.
Thanks again.

 

[OhWellcraft]

Re: Old Geyser Needs Help

Generally when I get people up on almost anything I drop the hammer until they are on top of the water then back off accordingly. Unless you have a super stout boat or a duo-prop you would be advised to give her all she's got until they are up then let them tell you what they want. If you go the half throttle approach you may be dragging them too long and that is very hard to hold onto the rope for any time at all. Much harder to hold on while dragging then to get up on top quickly then back down. I like to ski about 32-34 mph, but I pull alot of others who are pretty good skiers at 26-28mph and they do just fine. Weight, skill level, water condition, all play a important part in it. Even when I knee board, wake board, air chair, I like full throttle to get me up then back down to around 17-20mph. With some tubes it is essential you go full tilt right from the start or they have a tendency to want to pull under and submarine. Stay with it youll get it..........

 

[DaveM]

Re: Old Geyser Needs Help

Good suggestions so far. I have one more, very important thing to do. Make sure you are bending your knees as you start. It sort of sounds like you are creating too much drag by trying to stand up too early. Symptoms of this problem look like getting pulled over the top of the ski or having the rope pulled out of your hands.

It is a natural reaction to resist the pull of the boat using your legs. Instead, try squatting onto the back of the ski. Stand up only when you are completely out of the water.

 

[wire2]

Re: Old Geezer Needs Help

Re: Old Geezer Needs Help

I use a couple of tricks to start on one without getting wet;

stand on the dock on my left foot with a slalom ski on my right, over the water and aimed at the boat. Have the boat about 15-25? away from parallel to the dock.

When there's still ~15 feet of slack in the water, yell "Hit it!
The boat will be on plane when the rope tightens, then step onto the water, put your other foot in the toe piece.

The same procedure can be done from shallow water, like a beach. Stand on your left foot in 15-18" of water, have the ski tip out of the water, again, hit it with 15 ft of slack. There's only a tiny fraction of the pull of a deep water start.

If you're going fast, as when well outside the wake of a turning boat, and you know you're going to wipe out, the best way to avoid having a limb pulled or twisted is immediately pull into a tight fetal position. You'll roll on top of the water until you slow a bit.

I've done it at 60 mph leaning hard way outside the radius of my boat at 35 mph in a U turn. I hit another boat's wake, suddenly there's no water under the ski. I recall counting the horizon going by about 6 times before I slowed and sunk into the water, with NO injuries. A bit dizzy though.

 

[PW2]

Re: Old Geyser Needs Help

The easiest way to do it is to start on two skis and then drop one once up. That's a sure fire way when skiing behind a boat you are not familiar with, especially when there are lots of people and time is a factor.

Any other way is simply trial and error--do what works and avoid what doesn't work

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Old Geyser Needs Help

I like the advice above about dragin' one foot, (I learned to ski behind a 50 HP Merc so that is how I do deep water starts too), it really reduces the drag and the trailing leg stabalizes ya and points ya in the right direction.

As far as 15 feet of slack on a dock start, (if yer boat is real sluggish that may work: [I think it would be real risky fer potential injury]), I have never allowed that much.

My current boats that pull me are fairly light with inline 6 tower of powers Mercs with very strong hole shots. If you gave them 15 feet of slack it would be regretable. I allow the rope to dip to my elbow or maybe my knees, as the line is tightening with the motor in gear at a fast idle, n' the skipper puts her to the wall with just a few feet of slack. 15 feet would surely kill me.

If yer boat/motor combination is very slow outta the hole less slack would pull ya into the water and ya might get a bit wet, (better then dislocating yer sholders). I would not allow 15 feet of slack if I were the skipper regardless of when ya told me ta hit it. My $.02 JR

 

[wire2]

Re: Old Geezer Needs Help

Re: Old Geezer Needs Help

It's a common misconception that letting a boat get on plane, then start pulling a skier, is risky. The rope doesn't "snap" you off your feet. As it rises from the water the tension ramps up progressively. When it starts to pull, you step forward off the dock and shift weight to the ski. In 15 feet, a boat is just not going all that fast yet.
You momentarily sink a tiny bit, then accelerate quickly to what speed you want.
There's no more tension on the rope than when under way.
I've done it one-handed. (didn't want to lose my hat).

The only possibility of injury is to fall into the water and still try to hold the rope.

And no, my boat isn't sluggish. It planes in less than 1 second, 300 hp 5.7 I/O on a 19'.

I should have qualified my previous post though, I don't recommend a dock or beach start for any one learning to slalom.
Learn it first by dropping 1 of 2 skis. When you're comfortable on 1, then try it. You will NOT dislocate a shoulder.

 

[wire2]

Re: Old Geezer Needs Help

Re: Old Geezer Needs Help

I had anticipated (and would welcome) more debate.

I have to admit, when the procedure was first described to me, I also had visions of my arms being pulled hard. But, being young & foolish at the time, I decided to try it anyway.
Nothing to it!

>>less slack would pull ya into the water and ya might get a bit wet, (better then dislocating yer sholders)<<

That's actually the reverse of what happens. On top of the water, the tow rope has to overcome only the body's inertia and a bit of air friction. As you drop into the water, the drag increases exponentially. If you go in to the hips, the ski and your legs are trying to displace hundreds of gallons of water a minute.

Water is almost 800 times as dense as air, and gravity will do its best to keep you in it, unless you have enough speed/lift to keep you up right off the bat.

Measure 15 feet along a dock sometime, hit the throttle and see what your speedo reads in that distance. I expect most boats won't have a pitot tube needle off the pin yet.
A gps might be at 8-10 mph.

This thread started with the premise of a problem of not being able to hold onto the rope from a water start. Obviously the arms & shoulders are much stronger than fingers. And even fingers can hold enough tension to cause a handle to gouge a dent in a ski when it's released in an aborted start.

I still maintain that a dock start with 15 ft of slack will not approach that kind of tension. Not even close.
My boat is out of the water, or I'd be happy to make a video clip demo. It's 85? and sunny here in Ontario today.

Enjoy the weekend, folks!

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Old Geezer Needs Help

Re: Old Geezer Needs Help

I had anticipated (and would welcome) more debate.

I have to admit, when the procedure was first described to me, I also had visions of my arms being pulled hard. But, being young & foolish at the time, I decided to try it anyway.
Nothing to it!

>>less slack would pull ya into the water and ya might get a bit wet, (better then dislocating yer sholders)<<

I think you read this wrong. I am admitting that I MAY DROP FARTHER INTO THE WATER THEN YOU WOULD, (since I am recomending MUCH LESS SLACK then you are).

That's actually the reverse of what happens. On top of the water, the tow rope has to overcome only the body's inertia and a bit of air friction. As you drop into the water, the drag increases exponentially. If you go in to the hips, the ski and your legs are trying to displace hundreds of gallons of water a minute.

Agree.

Water is almost 800 times as dense as air, and gravity will do its best to keep you in it, unless you have enough speed/lift to keep you up right off the bat.

Measure 15 feet along a dock sometime, hit the throttle and see what your speedo reads in that distance. I expect most boats won't have a pitot tube needle off the pin yet.
A gps might be at 8-10 mph.

This is where the debate is. My old inlines have FAR move power outa the hole then ANY IO I have seen. The later model V6 two cycle outboards also have very high power to weight ratios (relative to the heavy IOs) that kill IOs outa the hole. That is why they don't have much wake. I have skiied a great deal behind an IO, (18' Fiberform with a 350 small block ran 58 MPH gps) where we would have two to three times the slack we would with an outboard. The IO had far more actual power it was just the very quick nature of the two stroke power. If my old girls were hooked to a IO I have no doubt the IO would eventually out pull the outboards.

This thread started with the premise of a problem of not being able to hold onto the rope from a water start. Obviously the arms & shoulders are much stronger than fingers. And even fingers can hold enough tension to cause a handle to gouge a dent in a ski when it's released in an aborted start.

Agreed, but if ya have fairly strong fingers and hands ya don't wanna have yer shoulders or arms give out. I've never seen someone start with 15 feet of slack, but it is possible and I believe ya. I just think it is safer to alow less slack and get a little wet since you as the skiier are in charge then takin' a chance where the boat will have a certian amount of speed after the 15 feet of slack is gone and the boat is in charge not you.

I will cornceed that you could probably start behind my boats with 15 feet as you now have that skill, I jus' think it is very dangerious. I maybe wrong as you have done it and I have not. I have been skiin' fer nearly 40 years.

I still maintain that a dock start with 15 ft of slack will not approach that kind of tension. Not even close.
My boat is out of the water, or I'd be happy to make a video clip demo. It's 85? and sunny here in Ontario today.

Enjoy the weekend, folks!

Thanks fer yer reply. JR

 

[BF]

Re: Old Geyser Needs Help

I think one issue is how different you are in weight now compared to how heavy you were when you used to do a lot of skiing.

I was a rail when I used to ski a lot as a teen to early twenties... now I'm in my mid-life spread. I think the extra weight makes a HUGE difference in the feel involved with skiing. The force involved in rapidly accelerating a 140 lb mass is much different from that needed to accelerate a 200 lb mass. I used to do shallow water or flying dock starts and basically not sink at all... just continued like on plane... now either of those ends up looking like a deep water start.

For fun, I dug out one of my oldie skies, more of a recreational ski than a serious slalom ski. It was MUCH easier to ski. I wasn't surprised by that, but I was surprised how much different they were. I think there was much less drag on the aggressive ski's when I was 140 than there is now. I think that's part of the reason why slalom is so tiring. 1) Way more drag, 2) also way more out of shape.

Anyway, that's my $.02

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Old Geyser Needs Help

I think one issue is how different you are in weight now compared to how heavy you were when you used to do a lot of skiing.

True, I my case I wrestled 185 lb where I had to loose weight to make the weight in in High School, and I'm 205-210 now and no where near as good of shape as then.

I was a rail when I used to ski a lot as a teen to early twenties... now I'm in my mid-life spread. I think the extra weight makes a HUGE difference in the feel involved with skiing. The force involved in rapidly accelerating a 140 lb mass is much different from that needed to accelerate a 200 lb mass. I used to do shallow water or flying dock starts and basically not sink at all... just continued like on plane... now either of those ends up looking like a deep water start.

Since I have always opted fer less slack, especially on a two stroke relatively light weight rapidly accelerating outboard, (I always had relatively more slack on an IO): I always got a little wet off the dock. It always seemed that the outboards were the least amount of wet versus the IO's even with less slack but I have not skiied an IO for over ten years.

For fun, I dug out one of my oldie skies, more of a recreational ski than a serious slalom ski. It was MUCH easier to ski. I wasn't surprised by that, but I was surprised how much different they were. I think there was much less drag on the aggressive ski's when I was 140 than there is now. I think that's part of the reason why slalom is so tiring. 1) Way more drag, 2) also way more out of shape.

Anyway, that's my $.02

123

 

[CampionGuy]

Re: Old Geyser Needs Help

Gloves, gloves, gloves. Task specific gloves. $20-30 for a reasonable pair to reduce arm and hand fatigue and increase grip.

The idea for holeshot is to get the ski out of the water....FAST....no fun skiing if the launch tires you out.

No doubt about it, 15 ' of slack maybe more depending on the boat. I am 42yrs., 6'2" and at my heaviest I was 260#. Getting out of deep water was at best difficult with a memorable drag behind a 70hp outboard. Slalom dock or beach start is the cat's meow for several reasons, 1) it's wayyyyyy easier 2) it's drier 3) it looks really cool, particulary the beach start in 6" of H2O . One critical point, contrary to the deep water start, YOU MUST KEEP YOUR ELBOWS BENT AND UPPER ARMS AT BREAST LEVEL. Use the elbows as shock absorbers to relieve the strain on your shoulder joint and rotator cuff tendons. You can very well dislocate, tear or even break something if you don't. Straighten the arms as the initial shock is absorbed ad fully straight until you start maneouvering
.
So....15-20' of rope is not unreasonable. Behind a boat meant for great holeshot 10-15' is enough.

As a driver the quickest hole shot you can get is best. The faster the better, WOT to start and just watch the ski (yes...the ski) and feather the throttle according to the ski and where it is in the water. *Watch where you're going too*. This is important I have seen many close calls and a few accidents from being too focused on the skier, that's the spotter's job.

28-30mph should be plenty of speed to get you skiing if you are about 175#'s but you will get tired real fast. Staying up and reducing surface tension/friction actually makes it easier to control the ski and reduce fatigue. Remember that unless you are really shoulder dragging, the fin will keep you in the water. Just try and get going and signal throttle up until you find the balance between comfort and safety.
Also there are skiis available which are wider and easier to keep on plane.
Good luck.

 

[wire2]

Re: Old Geyser Needs Help

>>...you as the skier are in charge than takin' a chance where the boat will have a certain amount of speed after the 15 feet of slack is gone and the boat is in charge not you.

See, that's the whole idea; to have the boat fast enough when the slack runs out to keep a slalom ski planed

I will cornceed that you could probably start behind my boats with 15 feet as you now have that skill, I jus' think it is very dangerious. I maybe wrong as ...

you have done it and I have not

There ya go! Try it, you'll like it. Start with 5 feet, then increase from there. Each time you'll drop into the water less. At 15', you'll just get your ankles wet

I have been skiin' fer nearly 40 years.

That's all? I first stepped into a cheap pair of skis behind a wooden boat with a 25 hp o/b and went once around a small lake at 14. I'm now 61, and can still outrun the teenager next door around the block.
I also windsurf and ride a 300cc 4 stroke dirtbike on the trails.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Old Geyser Needs Help

>>...you as the skier are in charge than takin' a chance where the boat will have a certain amount of speed after the 15 feet of slack is gone and the boat is in charge not you.

See, that's the whole idea; to have the boat fast enough when the slack runs out to keep a slalom ski planed

With 15 feet of slack my 115 hp black boat anchor on my little 16' Jolly Roger would be very close to "on step" heading very rapidly towards the high 50 MPH range until the Skipper backed off on the juice to cruise at 34 MPH + or -. I would have to get used to having the much greater boat speed prior to the skiier steping on the water and then adjusting the boat for the steady ski speed then the way I do it now. Relatively light weight/high power, high rpm, screamin' old black two strokes have very different acceleration characteristics then the pull of the four stroke I/O I most frequently skiied behind, (which admittidly was not as powerful as yours) but was still a very powerful 350 cubic inch Small Block Chevy Mercruiser I/O, n' the boat was a fairly light Fiberform. I'm fairly sure my old screamin' 115 would very badly kill your boat outta the hole and it would take you a lot of the lake to catch me. I have very little slack when I say "hit it", (say the dip from the tri pod to me and a some extra line to me elbow). BTW: me ski Buds and I ski 15' off, (60' line). When I step on the water (12" to 18" below my favorite dock) the massive acceleration of the 2 stroke boat anchor is just about exactly right with very little slack. The Skipper just has to back off the juice while I get my back foot in and then: gone cuttin' up the ol' glass. You may be able to hang on with yer skill, but if would be a huge challange and a significant potential for injury. The way I and my very experienced Buds all do it behind my old inline6s or my Buds' newer V6 Mercs you only would only want lots of slack to show it COULD be done. I'm fairly sure that you (as an experienced skiier) would also go with the low slack start as it works GREAT for both the Skipper and the skiier. My larger boat with the smaller 100 HP inline6 also has a REAL IN YER FACE hole shot as well. That is the main reason I luv my old Mercs in the first place.

I will cornceed that you could probably start behind my boats with 15 feet as you now have that skill, I jus' think it is very dangerious. I maybe wrong as ...

you have done it and I have not

There ya go! Try it, you'll like it. Start with 5 feet, then increase from there. Each time you'll drop into the water less. At 15', you'll just get your ankles wet

I really don't drop much at all in the water, I'm just cornceedin' I may drop more then you do with all that slack and hull speed. If somethin' works fer a long Long time without injury or incident why fix somethin that is not broke? When I ski behind an I/O, (much more weight in the stern then my boats have, as my 115 is only 260 to 275 lbs and my 100 HPs are even less) I do allow a lot more slack then I do with my two stroke outboards when I use an I/O. I have a wealthy neighbor with a master craft (or something similar), and he is a real hot dog skiier. He and I took my old 1959 Sabrecraft out fer a ski. He was shocked at the hole shot it had.

I have been skiin' fer nearly 40 years.

That's all? I first stepped into a cheap pair of skis behind a wooden boat with a 25 hp o/b and went once around a small lake at 14. I'm now 61, and can still outrun the teenager next door around the block.
I also windsurf and ride a 300cc 4 stroke dirtbike on the trails.

You are 6 years older then me, and I also am in good shape and can run and do things with younger sports. If ya ever head to the Left Coast of the lower 48 let me know I bet we would both have fun. JR

 

[njlarry]

Re: Old Geyser Needs Help

Thanks for all the good advice. Deep water starts are my only option.
Finally got up keeping my arms straight and leaning back. Will get some gloves for sure.