Okay, here goes, I'm scared

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edandq

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Sep 4, 2003
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38
I have a 1970 Johnson Model 85ESL70B. It's that Hydro-electric drive. The engine starts and runs fantastic. But... going in and out of gear is pretty weird. Sometimes it goes into forward, usually not. Usually it goes into reverse, and rarely not. Once, from forward, went into reverse, started going forward again. I've read many posts on this, and I figure it's wiring or the solenoid or a switch or something like this. That being said, where do I start, if I remove the lower unit, what do I need first (packings, etc...) before I attempt it. I'm pretty mechanical, just never worked on anything like this in my life... mostly wood ;) I just know I need to get this problem licked, kids got a new tube for Christmas...
 
OBJ

OBJ

Supreme Mariner
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Dec 27, 2002
Messages
10,161
Re: Okay, here goes, I'm scared

Let's go a step at a time edandq......<br /><br />Sounds like a problem in the shift switch but let's save that thought for a few.....<br /><br />First...how long have you owned the engine and is this problem new or old?<br /><br />What does the gear lube look like? Does it look like tar or possibly milky? Water will reek havoc with these electric shifts. May be a good place to start.<br /><br />You need to use Premium C gear lube or a lube that is specifically for electric shift lower units.<br /><br />What does the wiring look like at the engine? If it's old and brittle, this could be the problem.<br /><br />So....let's get all the above outta the road so we can get ya' into the right direction.<br /><br />Don't hesitate to post!!
 
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DHPMARINE

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Dec 16, 2003
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3,688
Re: Okay, here goes, I'm scared

OBJ and edandq,<br /> These symtoms are strange I don't think it's fluid,but you do need OMC Premium Blend.The shift switch is a viable culprit,but does this engine have a vacuum switch? (starboardside,aft of carbs,about 2" dia.)?<br /> Unstable voltage (on and off) could be a factor.<br />DHP
 
OBJ

OBJ

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Dec 27, 2002
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10,161
Re: Okay, here goes, I'm scared

That's what I thought to DHP....just wanted to cover the easy stuff first. Strange things happen with these electric critters.
 
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edandq

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Sep 4, 2003
Messages
38
Re: Okay, here goes, I'm scared

Okay, the wiring lookly good, and I realize I need to use type C. This is my grandfathers boat and I'm restoring it to reatively like when he bought it. The engine has never been in salt water. The electrical looks good, not brittle. Last year, I went to pick up the boat from my mother, and it ran fine right away, then within a couple days, started doing as I described. I changed the lower unit lube,with type C, and it didnt' look milky, and didn't seen any metal in the drained fluid. What's weird, is mostly, when I put it in forward, it does nothing, but rev pretty high, then when it engages, it kicks hard, and it doesn't do it right away.<br /><br />Bottom line, I don't want to spend a ton of money to have someone who doesn't know how to work on these hydro things tell me I need a new engine, when I know it's fixable!
 
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Dhadley

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Feb 4, 2001
Messages
16,978
Re: Okay, here goes, I'm scared

Ive seen this once before but it should not happen on a 1972 but lets look at it anyway. <br /><br />Its possible for that motor to start and run backwards. The reverse cut off spring should prevent that unless its gone. If the motor starts and is running backwards (flywheel will be spinning counter-clockwise) the idle will be a bit high, somewhere around 1200 rpm or so. At that point when you put it in forward it will try to back up. (The prop is spinning backwards) <br /><br />If it is running backwards sometimes, its usually from carbon trails in the distributor cap. A new cap and rotor is required. At that time you can look at the reverse cut off spring. Its under the rotor. <br /><br />The other thing is these battery CD ignition motors must have an 85 amp hour battery or higher. <br /><br />Keep us posted!
 
Joe Reeves

Joe Reeves

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Feb 24, 2002
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13,262
Re: Okay, here goes, I'm scared

The electrical shifting setup of your lower unit follows. By disconnecting the shifting wires at the engine knife connectors and applying voltage directly to the associated wires, you can test and confirm or eliminate the problem being within the lower unit.<br /><br />(Hydro Electric Shift)<br />(J. Reeves)<br /><br />The shifting setup of the lower unit is what's called a "Hydro Electric Shift", which is quite complex consisting of voltage being applied to solenoids in the lower unit which in turn change oil passages via a oil pump that supplies various pressure on a spring loaded shifter dog. The wires leading to the lower unit (at the powerhead) are "Green" and "Blue". The engine must be running or cranking over in order to shift out of forward gear.<br /> <br />You CAN NOT use HI VIS lube in that lower unit. You MUST USE what OMC calls "Preminum Blend" lube, commonly called "Type C". (A thinner lube) <br /><br />In neutral, you need 12v to the "Green" wire. <br />In reverse, you need 12v to both wires, the "Green" one and the "Blue" one. <br />In forward, there should be no voltage to either wire. (The spring loaded shifter dog forces the unit into forward gear) <br /><br />To check the lower unit for proper shifting to make sure you have no trouble there, remove the spark plugs to avoid problems and to allow a higher cranking speed. <br /><br />This next step eliminates the actual shift switch in case problems may exist there.... Disconnect the blue & green wires at the knife connectors (the rubber insulated boots) leading to the lower unit at the powerhead, then using jumpers, take voltage direct from the starter solenoid to apply voltage to the "Green" wire for neutral, then both wires 'Green" & "Blue" for reverse (Remember the engine must be cranking over in order to shift).<br /> <br />With no voltage applied, the unit should be in forward. No need for a ground jumper... the lower unit's already grounded. You may crank the engine with the key switch or by energizing the starter solenoid with a jumper wire.
 
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edandq

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Sep 4, 2003
Messages
38
Re: Okay, here goes, I'm scared

First off, wow, you folks are great, and patient too! I'm still working on the boat, and have yet to start on engine, but want to do some things to get prepped for when I do.<br /><br />Tha being said, Joe, you gave me a little work to do first. Before I go on, I'll say, yes I know, I need a manual!<br /><br />Okay, I understood the theory of your post and basically how the shifting works, so if I read you correctly, we just want to isolate if it's in the lower unit or elswhere. <br /><br />So, to do that, I have to check the wires going into the leg. I found the wires, but can't find where the go on the engine part. I can't find where to disconnect them, it seems they go into a larger bundle. <br /><br />Do you want me to disconnect them, then start and run the engine while placing 12V's on the wires to see what happens? How so? A battery with a lead? and then just touch the wires?<br /><br />Back to the Type C. I know it has type C in it, but someone told me it may not be full or have air in it. Would that make a difference? How can I check?<br /><br />I am sorry to be such a burden, but I love the insight and help I'm receiving. If nothing else, it's a good education ;)
 
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