No spark

[MASTER Brian]

I was getting ready to perform a sync & link and found via my (homemaid) spark tester with gap set at 7/16" that I didn't have spark on 1, 3 & 5 cylinders. I hooked a plug to #1 and it sparked, but I couldn't get it to spark on the tester. I didn't try the other 2 cylinders, figured I'd find the same and was running short on time.

I'm assuming this is a power pack issue, which I plan to test, what else might cause this?

I should mention, I have had some issues with tach being intermittent and was told that was/is an indication that a certain electrical part was going out. Thought it was the rectifier.

I should also mention last time out I had a miss, that felt like a fouled plug. I pulled all plugs to clean and found 2 plugs that were bent and breaking at the porcelain. Not sure if they were broke prior or broke when pulled this time.

Were should I start looking for my issue??

 

[guywithboat]

Re: No spark

I would start at the rectifier. You can use an Ohm tester on it. There should be a reading on only one wire. I can't remember which. Take it off and your local boat shop should hook you up. It didn't cost me a thing.

 

[jtexas]

Re: No spark

When you say "bent and breaking at the porcelain" do you mean the ceramic is cracked? Can you describe the general appearance of those plugs? Which holes were they in? Others looked good? What kind of plugs are these?

If it fired with a spark plug, I'd be inclined to verify your tester by setting a small gap, just to be sure.

Repeat your spark test with the rectifier disconnected...if it fires replace the rectifier. Otherwise, you can test the rectifier with an ohmmeter.

Connect one ohmmeter lead to one of the AC inputs (from stator) of the rectifier, and the other ohmmeter lead to the red (+) wire. Note the reading. Reverse the ohmmeter leads. You should have a reading in one direction and open circuit in the other. Any other result indicates bad rectifier. Repeat the test using the other AC input.

Instructions and specs for testing your powerpack/stator will be in here:
http://rapair.com/LinkClick.aspx?link=downloads/Troubleshooting+Guide+2006.pdf&tabid=247&mid=789

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: No spark

When I say "bent and breaking at the porcelain", I mean the top portion of the plug was tilted (leaning) where it went into the metal (threaded part). One plug, I was able to pull the top of the plug off with my hands, the other, wasn't that bad, but not far off. I don't recall which hole they were in. I didn't notice when I pulled them out. The others were fine...a little rich looking, but fine. They are Champion plugs. Again, they may have been broken when pulled, I don't know.

I verified the spark tester, by switching #1 with #2 and then didn't get spark on #2, but showed spark on #1. When I switched it back, is when I noticed #3 not sparking.

I'll test it out and see. I can't find many tests for the rectifier in the manual besides a charging test and that doesn't seem to be my problem. I'll check with your method and link. Thanks!

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: No spark

Since I'm not too good at some of the more complex procedures listed in the manual for testing this stuff, I am thinking I will take the Power Packs and swap them. If my thinking is correct and it is the PP, then wouldn't it make sense that the opposite side would be without spark? If it turns out to be the same side, then it would be either all 3 coils (which would shock me to lose 3 on the same side at same time) or it would be the stator or rectifier. Is my thinking correct?

To double check the coil(s), I could also swap them. Also, what harm would it cause to swap the sides of the stator, while on a spark tester? That's hoping the wires would reach the opposite side. If I could do that and it doesn't change then it would be the rectifier.

Is my thinking correct?

I will run through some of the basic stuff, but some of this is electrically over my head.

 

[jtexas]

Re: No spark

Yes, powerpack-swapping, and coil-swapping is common practice for testing, sorry forgot you have two packs.

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: No spark

No problem. I didn't get a chance to run through the volt meter tests, but I also can't really get a spark via the spark tester on any of the cylinders. I did finally get spark on #4, but it wasn't consistant.

My spark tester is a home-made wood one and not thinking I left it out in the boat last night and it rained. I'm thinking maybe the moisture in the wood is throwing it off at this point. I thought it had dried enough, but maybe not.

I was told by someone to gap a plug really wide and see if I could get a spark that way. I tried, but the spark just jumped to the sides of the plugs, must have gapped it too much. I do have some spark on all cylinders, just not sure if it's a strong spark. They all had some blue in color if that means much. I'm just concerned why #1, #3, & #5 didn't show spark at all the other night on the tester.

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: No spark

Well, I went to O'reilley's and found a single spark tester. I adjusted the gap on it to approximately 7/16" and was able to get a spark on all 6 cylinders. I was a bit concerned about the spark on #1, but it was there and even blue at times. I say I was concerned, mainly because there were a few times it didn't seem real consistant, but it may have just been the amount of time the engine was cranked.

I'm going to try to take the boat out again tonight and see if it runs ok, with clean plugs. If not, I'll put the new ones in and check again.

 

[jtexas]

Re: No spark

Probably the rain interfering with your testing the other day.

You can start the engine with one plug on a tester if you suspect a misfire, might be able to detect it by watching. Probably not as good as a timing light.

With the engine running you can test the rectifier the easy way, by measuring battery voltage...if it is higher with the engine running at a fast idle than with it off, the rectifier is good.

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: No spark

My fishfinder measures battery voltage, can I use that as my gauge or not? Yesterday, with battery off, it showed 11.8V on the battery.

If not, what do I do, hook up my volt meter to the battery and see if it increases as I rev the motor? (sort of the way the volt meter in a car spikes as the car is reved?).

I have a timing light, should that tell me something as well? I have been using it lately trying to get the timing perfect. I would guess that since the timing light works, that's an indication the #1 cylinder is producing current. I just wasn't sure if it was a weak current if I'd have correct timing.

 

[jtexas]

Re: No spark

Right, voltage varies with RPM.

I would expect the fishfinder voltmeter to work...but 11.8 volts is just about dead...you shouldn't be able to crank the engine at that voltage.

12.65 = 100% charged
12.45 = 75%
12.24 = 50%
12.06 = 25%

But still I think if it goes up with RPMs should tell you if it's charging.

Sometimes you can tell if a cylinder's misfiring by watching the strobe...it's sort of a hit-or-miss thing. But it can help you narrow a misfire down to a particular cylinder.

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: No spark

I'll keep that in mind and find out.

I find that interesting if 11.8V is about dead. Maybe my battery is on the way out. I actually question the charger I just bought, which is going back.

I'll be curious to see if the volts go up as I run the boat. I also wonder if the 11.8V, could just be a drop as it passes through all the wiring harness and accessories. The fishfinder is hooked up to a board under the dash.

 

[jtexas]

Re: No spark

I also wonder if the 11.8V, could just be a drop as it passes through all the wiring harness and accessories.

good thinking, I don't have that battery monitor feature, if nobody jumps in here, why not post it in "Electronics".

 

[KYHunter2]

Re: No spark

I have my depth finders wired through the circuit board under dash.

There should be a direct hot to the board/ fuse panel from the battery .

Possibly through a breaker and or panel power switch.

Then its only the distance from panel to finder, not much in your boat.

My readings are very close to what jtexas stated, on finders.


The amount of wiring etc. that the depth finder is connected to.

Shouldn't change the volts at finder, though it may have a slight effect on the current flow.

Due to the resistance in the wiring.

If you want to be sure , check voltage at the depth finder , and at panel .

Compare the two.

Did you make sure when you assembled, that the grounds were clean and all connections tight?

Once its running, the battery , has no effect on spark.

Your symptoms of a sometimes blue spark , etc.

Sound like a possible ground problem.

KYHunter

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: No spark

KY, I connected it through a small panel under the dash. I'm not sure where it comes from. I just wired it up, where the other one was wired. Good idea on checking in both places.

I'll also double check some grounds. I thought they were all tight, but maybe something came loose. With a rebuilt motor, that makes sense.

Also, I know the battery has no effect on spark, but it should tell if the battery is charging. I'm not sure why that would effect the spark either, but I know it's a test the manual calls for. About the only one I could find regarding rectifier.

I plan on heading out for a bit tonight to see if she runs ok. I hope it was just bad plugs. I'll report back.

 

[jtexas]

Re: No spark

The rectifier is an arrangement of 4 diodes (like one-way valves for electricity); two ways a diode can fail: open, in which it won't conduct either way; or shorted, in which case it conducts both ways. If the rectifier diodes short out in the right (or wrong) configuration it can provide a short circuit for the ignition. Sometimes. Or so I have been led to believe. (Even though I've never found the connection on a wiring diagram).

And once you let the smoke out of those electronical gizmos they just ain't worth a damn after that!

 

[KYHunter2]

Re: No spark

jtexas,

LMAO, Is that kinda like when a wire turns REAL red and all the plasticey stuff melts off ? ?

Got me thinking jtexas, What would the current path be , for the short to effect the ignition ??

Just curious, Would it go through the starting circuit ?

Or through the ground somehow ??

Or maybe the tach , to ignition switch?

Maybe off the wall, but its hard to visualize.


KYHunter :%

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: No spark

Well, I got it back out on the water for a bit, fairly rough, so I didn't get a chance to run it with a volt meter directly to the battery.

I did notice that the volt meter on the fish finder read 11.8V while not running on trailer. When I put it in the water and turned the key on, the low voltage alarm sounded on the fish finder. I was able to start the boat, could tell battery was very low, and as soon as the boat started the volts dropped to about 11.7V. They never came up, but did drop to about 11.5V with lights on coming back in, if I'd turn the lights off, it would go back up to 11.7V.

This leads me to believe the volt meter is fairly accurate. So is this a fairly reliable indication that the rectifier/regulator is bad or does it need more testing? Could it be just a bad or very undercharged battery? I plan on taking the battery to get tested.

BTW...the boat ran great, no miss. I guess that was just a bad/dirty plug(s).

What all does the rectifier/regulator do? If I decide it is bad, I'll order a new one, but is it safe to be out until it gets replaced? I'm not worried about losing the tach or a dead battery. I don't want to be stranded or fry anything else.

 

[KYHunter2]

Re: No spark

It converts A/c current from stator coils to D/c current to charge the battery.

Dis connect rect. leads at the term. strip.

With your meter on high ohms scale connect one lead to yellow wire and one to ground, remember reading, reverse leads and compare .

Should be 0 (zero) one way infinity the other .

Do the same with yell/grey wire.

If its not as indicated, diodes are toast and you need a new rectifier.

Which is really just a series of diodes .

Forget all that yours has the rect. reg. together.

with engine running test across battery should be 12.5 or more if it isn't.

Disconnect battery cables.

You'll need an 0-40 ammeter, connect it in series between batt. side of starter solenoid, and rect/reg. red lead.

Reconnect the batt. cables pos. then neg. , start and run at around 4500 rpms and watch ammeter.

It should be reading almost the full output of your charging system .

As the motor runs the voltage across batt. should stay around 14.5 volts.

And the output from reg./rect should start to fall off.

If the ammeter readings aren't correct, test your stator, if its , Ok.

Replace reg./Rect.

KYHunter

KYHunter

 

[MASTER Brian]

Re: No spark

I'll do those two tests. I need to double check and see if my multi-meter can be used as an ammeter or not or I need to get one.

I am also a bit confused about how to connect the ammeter. Maybe it'll make sense when I look at the motor, but I am not clear on what I am connecting. I know the battery side of the solenoid and the red lead on the rect/reg, but the "series" is what has me lost. Can you please explain further? [colour=red]That would lead me to believe I need to hook the red from ammeter to battery side of ammeter and black to red lead on rect/reg. Is that correct?[/colour]
I can't find this in the manual anywhere. It gives me the stator tests, but nothing on the rect/reg. At least not that I can find.