No Spark on one cylinder

[tootallofwa]

I trying to revive a 63' Big Twin 40hp 40352d That's getting spark to only one cylinder.

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y309/tootallofwa/engineIDsm.jpg

My first thought was that I need to check coils, points, plug wires which I haven't done yet.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/...958_6135_40hpwithoutgenerato.jpg?t=1179771951

I saw this wiring diagram on another thread and realized that the cutout switch or the safety switch or a short in a magneto wire could cause my symptoms.

I think I have a kill /shutoff condition.

So I examined my engine closer and found 2 sensors/switches on the White wire circuit which I'm trying to understand function of... I do not have electric choke.

Also I'm trying to figure the polaritys to account for which one may be causing the trouble.

I've discovered that the ignition wires (two black wires) are connected to each other when in off condition within the switch to short the points together to create a kill condition.

I put a volt meter between the block and; the cutout switch center post where one black wire connected, and also to a knife connection, I believe to be the olher black wire, while in the run position and got 0 voltage on each. (In the first picture, the wire looks bad on the cutout center post but it has continuity.) (In the second picture the wire is not pinched and that is a tear in a jacket over the wire not the insulation. The knife connector in inside the fat sleeve laying on the case).

Guess I need to try ohm meter instead.

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y309/tootallofwa/CutoutSwitchsm.jpg
http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y309/tootallofwa/Blkignwire1sm.jpg

How does the cut out valve work? It's supposed to connect to the non start lug of the solenoid, which I found out is a ground. So I can still crank it fine with the key and the one plug works. This also means the solenoid works.

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y309/tootallofwa/Junctionboxjumpsm.jpg
http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y309/tootallofwa/Junctionboxdiagramsm-1.jpg

If the white wire is a ground to the solenoid from the cut out switch and the safety switch for kill. Either switch could be killing my spark.

Oohh! just discovered the white wire looks bad in the junction block. I'm gonna have to replace some wire. no obvious ground connections. (The junction box to battery cables were bad too. Red coating crumbling off cable, Black bandaged with tape.) Might have to check out the power head harness.

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y309/tootallofwa/mercuryswitchsm.jpg

There's also a brown wire that seems to go from a temp sensor/mercury switch? in the head to the ignition switch. Does this switch disable crank if motor is not down? or provide for an idiot light that I don't have.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/BoatBuoy/iboats/wiring4.jpg

This other wiring diagram shows a safety switch that is connected only to the cutout switch, and the other white wire that goes back to solenoid. Is this the "neutral" safety switch? It's in neutral as shown. How does this work? Is there a adjustment? I don't have a kill switch on my motor.

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y309/tootallofwa/safetyswitchsm.jpg

I was dreaming that it would just start after cleaning the fuel system.
Any suggestions/answers???

I'm waiting for a book in the mail.

 

[trimmers]

Re: No Spark on one cylinder

Oh my goodness oh my goodness!!! Dude, you're opening a huge can of worms trying to figure out 1 cylinders no spark issue! Kill switches will kill both cylinders spark, so it must not be that. In my opinion, which might not be highly regarded, but is simple reasoning, start with swapping plugs, if the fault stays on that cylinder, swap the plugs back, then swap the plug wires, and then the wire from the coils, and then the coils themselves and then the power packs if your engine has multiples, (mine has 2 on my V6). After you do all that, and nothing works, now its time to dig into wire bundles and chase volts, continuity and ground wires. It works for me. Plus, it helps familiarize yourself with all the essential in and outs of your engines components. Good luck

 

[bktheking]

Re: No Spark on one cylinder

Oh my goodness oh my goodness!!! Dude, you're opening a huge can of worms trying to figure out 1 cylinders no spark issue!

Actually he's not. First off this motor doesn't have a powerpack so none to worry about. This motor does have a vacuum cut off switch which if defective will kill spark on one coil. To isolate disconnect the black wire from the switch and start it, if you get spark on both wires then thats the problem. To isolate the ignition switch disconnect the harness from the motor and jump the solenoid. If still only one spark swap coils around, if spark doesn't move with the coil it's a bad breaker/condensor.

 

[jonesg]

Re: No Spark on one cylinder

If its like my old twin, its 45 yrs old and high time for new ignition.
I would replace the whole lot, plugs, wires, coils, condensors, points, etc.
Do one side at a time or you'll lose track of how it gets wired up.
Cost around $80 for parts.
Replace the water pump and change gear oil, use new seals on drain screws, rebuild carb.

I'd do all that unless you already did it....then see if it sparks.

The troubleshooting described by Trimmers is good if the parts are relatively new but if they're old don't waste time chasing it, swap the whole lot out.

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: No Spark on one cylinder

suggest you read all of these, expecially points and coils. 99% you have a bad coil

 

[tootallofwa]

Re: No Spark on one cylinder

I disconnected the wires at the cut out switch. I had continuity on each the black and white wires going to the junction block, with no grounding.

I checked for grounding on the white wire to the safety switch, the center and corner posts of the cut out switch, and continuity between the two posts on the cut out, and had none.

I did have some continuity to ground on both ignition wires going into the magneto. The cut out and safety switch don't seem to be problem.

Still not going to pop the flywheel till I get a book and new parts. I want to be able to put it right back together after I dissect it.
Gotta look in the book to figure out how the safety switch works, shifting doesn't seem to affect it.

I've discovered too that there is a plate under the flywheel that moves, seems to ride wherever it wants. My guess without a book is spark advance.

Get the book!
Get the book!
Get the book!

Anything on how those switches work would be helpful.

Thanks

 

[jonesg]

Re: No Spark on one cylinder

Yep, stator plate.

 

[lindy46]

Re: No Spark on one cylinder

I've discovered too that there is a plate under the flywheel that moves, seems to ride wherever it wants. My guess without a book is spark advance.

Anything on how those switches work would be helpful.

Thanks

The armature plate may not be fastened down properly to the ring underneath. That would cause intermittent or no spark. I just worked on a 10hp with that very problem - the armature plate is held on by 4 bolts - two pass through the coils and two are on the base of the plate. On my motor, the two which mount to the base of the plate were completely loose, and the ones through the coils were also loose. Armature plate flopped around alot! Tightened them all up and had great spark. The safety switch rides on the permiter of the armature plate and could also be affected by the plate being loose. The safety switch must be pushed in to allow spark. If the throttle is advanced too far, the switch opens up as it reaches an indent on the armature plate. That kills the spark. Make sure the safety switch is tight in it's mounting area (held on by two bolts).

 

[samo_ott]

Re: No Spark on one cylinder

I think you're over anlyzing. I'd simply disconnect the 2 black wires coming form the points under the flywheel to isolate the ignition from everything else. If there is still no spark on one side, pull the flywheel and investigate and probably replace the coils and clean the points. And yes, get a manual if in doubt.

 

[Bluesmobile]

Re: No Spark on one cylinder

I believe the cutout switch and the safety switch are wired in series.

the armature plate is supposed to turn some with the advance of the throttle. And yes, make sure that when the throttle is pulled back that the safety switch bracket is tightened to make the switch pressed up against the plate.
Chances are good that its a coil. Once you pull the flywheel off, check the coils (you will know if its bad) and the points (use feeler guage).

From the pictures, your motor is almost simaler to mine except that the cutout switch is on the other side.

 

[tootallofwa]

Re: No Spark on one cylinder

Well, I got my book... Seloc's 56'-70' Johnson/Evinrude Repair Manual.
Boy there's a bunch in here.

The pictures are of poor quality b&w like a copy.

So far I've read that the cut out switch will only ground the ignition in an "Overrun/runaway Condition". (High vacuum caused by too many RPM's, eg. lost prop or out of water) definitely not what's killing me.

The safety switch activates only at high throttle, also not the problem.

I pulled the flywheel. The points have black patches where metal transferred, not good. One coil wire looked like it might be grounding to the condenser and the magnetos look like they could be adjusted poorly, . The plug wires may be bad too.
http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y309/tootallofwa/coilwiregrounding.jpg

I moved the condenser wire put it back together and checked for spark.
still no spark on one cylinder. The one spark is weak.
http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y309/tootallofwa/coils2.jpg

I'm going to have to just replace the works.

I'm just stubborn I guess ... but I don't want break down and paddle.
Priced the parts here and an impeller for under a hundred bucks.

 

[bktheking]

Re: No Spark on one cylinder

I wouldn't replace a single thing under that flywheel, it all looks new and whoever bought the parts spent some coin, they look like OMC coils. Sand the faces of the points with emery cloth and check the gap. As far as switches, if the cut out switch is shorted internally it would defintely kill spark on 1 cylinder but I doubt its the issue. Had the same problem today on my 5.5, I cleaned the points on the one that wasnt firing, removed the wire from the coil, cut 1/4 inch of wire , screwed it back into the coil and then had spark. Do the free things first and you will have success.

 

[samo_ott]

Re: No Spark on one cylinder

I agree. Things look pretty good in there. No point replacing parts. Clean the points real good. Get em shiny. You might want to consider taking all the parts off, cleaning em and putting em back on. Maybe reverse the coils to see if the spark moves. Sometimes you see a wiring issue doing that and like Brad says, cut off 3/8" of wire helps also. And make sure you clean that taper on the crank. And I would still disconnect both cutoff wires to the points to isolate any external issues.

 

[tootallofwa]

Re: No Spark on one cylinder

Well, I took it apart, sanded the points, got new plug wires, did not swap coils. Put it all back and still have only one firing plug.

I took the "ignition wires" loose, (should be called "Kill" wires) and rerouted them so they wouldn't be pinched under the coils, or catch on anything when the throttle turns the stator plate. I made sure they weren't grounded before I connected them to the points.

I should have taken a picture of the underside of the stator for wire routing. It was on and off again to get the wires to not hang when the stator moves.

I didn't have a gap gauge so I used a match book to set the points. (works on lawnmowers)

Had a bunch of troubles...

Put the flywheel on with a gap gauge inside, didn't realize till after I torqued it down... What's that grinding sound???

Broke a starter ring bolt off in the flywheel... Take it apart again...

Lost the old plug wire end in the dark... Had to steal one off the lawn mower.

But to top off the No Spark...
I finally put a compression gauge on it... 90psi top, 60psi bottom.

I am learning...

Ill be back to this thread after I find the low compression thread...
I figure I'll have to pull and rebuild the powerhead...
better check the water pump too.:redface:

Thanks for all the help

 

[samo_ott]

Re: No Spark on one cylinder

Ugh. Not sure what the gap is on a matchbook but it's probably close but getting the right tools really helps!
How did you break a bot on the ring gear?
Did the gauge mess up anything inside?
That compression is not good. Maybe a head gasket. Maybe rings.

 

[tootallofwa]

Re: No Spark on one cylinder

Ugh. Not sure what the gap is on a matchbook but it's probably close but getting the right tools really helps!
How did you break a bot on the ring gear?
Did the gauge mess up anything inside?
That compression is not good. Maybe a head gasket. Maybe rings.

I didn't seem like the gauge messed anything up. Just a piece if tin rattling around when I turned the flywheel by hand. I found all the pieces.

The bolt is one of three that holds the rope starter ring on top the flywheel...
Put a hundred foot pounds on the crank nut then just over tightened the 1/4" bolt by ratchet. Tried to pick it out, no go. Drilling it out started to drive it through the flywheel. I pulled the FW back off so I wouldn't have a bit of bolt rattling around or worse drill into a coil. Not a real big deal...

I'm thinking rings. The pistons look pitted through the plug holes, not that that is an indication, but it looks bad.

OK... so the boat was unused for 10 years, one plug was out, no spark on one cylinder, and the head looks like it came from a different engine.
Looks like someone tried to fix it but couldn't. The guy I got it from, got it from his daughter who was going through a divorce and nobody knew why they stopped using the boat. Someone isn't talking.

I'm thinking the impeller went out, it over heated, they replaced the head and gasket, threw it together and prayed. And is still doesn't work.

I've been looking at parts to re-ring they are hard to find and expensive.
I may just try to find something different.

 

[glassmaster68]

Re: No Spark on one cylinder

had the same prob,,just changed coils ,condensers and points,since they were all the originals but didnt look bad ,,and it was said,,,let there be fire!!!,and it was so,,,check to see if the cyl not firing is the one with the black wire going from the vac cut off sw to that cyl point set,seems that sometimes they get switched around,,,if it is disconnect it from the switch,,if it fires then,you have a defective vac cut off switch,,,the other wire coming from the other point set should go to the key switch

 

[tootallofwa]

Re: No Spark on one cylinder

Well that was a colossal waste of time.

I took the head off and found at least two gouges in the lower cylinder wall and there was a chip out of the piston about nickle sized in diameter next to an exhaust port. It had to have swallowed something and had trouble spitting it out.

ALWAYS CHECK COMPRESSION FIRST!

Parts and machine work should be about $400 minimum.

It's a goner.


THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP.

 

[bktheking]

Re: No Spark on one cylinder

Well that was a colossal waste of time.

I don't know if it was , you discovered that it has brand new setup under the flywheel. If you can wait till I get my cast off I have a 62 or 63 big twin 40 powerhead with pistons sitting in the shed next door, I'd have to check it out before I ship it. It comes off next Friday!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[tootallofwa]

Re: No Spark on one cylinder

I don't know if it was , you discovered that it has brand new setup under the flywheel. If you can wait till I get my cast off I have a 62 or 63 big twin 40 powerhead with pistons sitting in the shed next door, I'd have to check it out before I ship it. It comes off next Friday!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that a nautical type joke, "cast off"? I can't wait to get my "cast off" either.

Vancouver WA is a long way from Ontario. I've been eying a 28 horse Johnson for $200, ad says it runs and its only 30 miles away in Salem OR. Don't know what year but seems they didn't make one till 86'.

I don't think I can make it worth you while.
Thanks for the thought...