Nissan 6hp running problems

loserboy

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MY 2006 Nissan 6hp 4 stroke, less than 20 hours and infrequent use, now starts up fine and runs for 30-60 seconds then idles down and stalls, often with loud backfire; any attempt to throttle up during this slowing down causes immediate stall. Motor will start up again after stalling, but only runs for seconds. Very hard to pull on starter initially after this event. Plenty of fuel in the carb bowl, plug is sparking, plug looks fine. I had same problem last fall, again after fuel sat in tank 4-5 months - I took apart carb and fuel pump, cleaned it out, found nothing wrong - then it ran okay. I questioned whether the fuel itself could be the problem - phase separation? with the alcohol/water mixture being drawn from the bottom of tank. I'm getting around (sort of) with a broken leg/cast, so dragging the motor off my moored sailboat has not been an option this year. Any ideas? - Bill.
 

pvanv

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Re: Nissan 6hp running problems

Yes, you may be a victim of poor fuel You can check that by running fresh fuel. Keep in mind that there's a fair amount of fuel remaining in the primer hose as well.

Sounds like you may have cleared out the bad stuff by cleaning out the carb and pump, but there may be mode poor fuel in the tank.
 

loserboy

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Re: Nissan 6hp running problems

Well, I drained the entire fuel system and ran new gas through the system - no change; once again, the motor started and then ran fine for about one minute, then idled down and quit with a loud backfire. Immediate attempts to restart were futile, and after a few minutes, it would start on the lowest throttle setting, then die within 10 seconds. The oil is clean and at a normal level, but appears to have many tiny bubbles in it after running - I'm not sure of the significance. Help!
 

pvanv

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Re: Nissan 6hp running problems

OK... let's diagnose the symptoms. A backfire through the carb is typically either a very lean mixture or incorrect timing.

As long as the flywheel has not slipped on the shaft (I have seem sheared or missing crank keys), then the initial timing should be OK... so that's probably not your issue, since a cold start is OK... So it's likely that you are either running out of fuel, or the CD box is failing (and firing out of time) as it starts to warm up.

It is possible that the needle/seat is jamming, causing the carb bowl to fill very slowly, with the resultant good start, and transition to very lean condition.

If the oil is overfilled by even an ounce, it will foam up. This can cause extreme crankcase pressures, and stalling, or at least speed limiting. We normally fill the 4/5/6 to only half way on the dipstick during service.

A difficult-to-pull starter means extra friction... that can come from a severe overheat (unlikely), liquid lock in the cylinder (also unlikely in your case), or a mechanical problem. That said, if you have a cooling water leak into the cylinder, it could cause the slowing and stalling, possibly with a backfire, along with the difficult restarting.

Water in the cylinder should usually result in a too-clean spark plug (think steam cleaning it), so a close look at the plug should help with the diagnosis.

These motors have a 3-yr warranty, so you may be able to get it serviced at no charge. Of course, warranty does not cover bad fuel issues, or overfilled crankcase.
 

loserboy

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Re: Nissan 6hp running problems

Thank you for the thoughtful comments. I have had a sense that there is some sort of back pressure problem, either crankcase or exhaust - though I see plenty of bubbles coming out of the exhaust. The oil is filled to the top of the dipstick, but I have not added any all year and it ran fine all season, the few times I have used it. I guess if fuel somehow leaked into the crankcase this could create an overfill situation. The difficulty in pulling the starter cord is only on the initial turn over, and only if I try immediately after it has stalled.
The fuel bowl is full right after it stalls, so I don't think it is starved. The issue clearly seems to be related to warming, as the motor starts right up and rev's and idles fine, then gradually becomes more and more resistant to rev'ing, then will only idle, then idles down to a stop. There is no misfiring until the final backfire.
Somewhat reassuring is that the same thing happened last year and cleared up. I will try changing the oil and refilling at a lower level. I don't want to think about water in the cylinder, but that might fit the bill. I suspect I am a week or so past the warranty, unfortunately. Thanks again.
 

pvanv

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Re: Nissan 6hp running problems

You may just be a little high on oil. See the FAQ on 4-strokes making oil for details. Definitely confirm that you are not overfilled, not even a drop.

That aside, if there is a failing CD box, and you are that close to warranty, the dealer may be able to get a go-ahead from the factory, as a "good faith" no-charge repair. The Tohatsu factory reps are very reasonable. But we're getting way ahead of ourselves here.

After your oil change, test run it again, and see if you can get some more diagnosis.

Remember to not overfill the oil. It uses a surprisingly small amount of oil -- less than a pint. And you have to add a little at a time, towards the end of the refill, let the level settle, then screw the dipstick/oil fill plug all the way in and get a reading. If you don't screw the plug all the way in, you will be getting a "false low" reading, and will be way overfilled. Use 4-stroke FC-W rated, non-synthetic oil, as it has enhanced anti-corrosion additives. 10w-30 works best in these motors, but 10w-40 is also OK, especially in really hot weather.
 

loserboy

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Re: Nissan 6hp running problems

Thanks for following along. I changed the oil, which looked perfectly normal, and refilled it with about 400ml of 10w40 - the level is now midway up the dipstick, but there was no change in the behavior. I took the carb off and cleaned out all the jets and passages - just the usual build-up, no smoking gun - and no real change. It's getting spark when it won't fire up, and the plug is looking sooty from all the cold/choked running - certainly not clean. I pulled the exit line from the fuel pump when it was running - I got a face full of fuel; it is working. I changed the fuel filter. I noticed with the old one, and now with the more transparent new one, that when the engine is running, there is a gradually increasing amount of air and less fuel - vacuum vs air leak. I just replaced the bulb and fuel lines from the fuel tank, and I don't think the strainer in the tank is clogged - the bulb pumps vigorously - but I have noted some wiggle and fuel seapage from the connector between the fuel line and the engine. I wonder if enough air could be leaking into the line to create a vapor lock? I'll replace that connector if I can find one. Frustratingly, just like last year, it is gradually starting to run longer and longer before stalling, without a clear reason why. What would symptoms of a failing CD box be? I'm running of usual suspects. Thanks again
 

pvanv

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Re: Nissan 6hp running problems

Hmm... Seems you seem to have two different problems.

The bubbles in the fuel line could indeed be from a leaky o-ring at the 2-prong fuel connector at the motor. When you changed the primer bulb, etc., did you do the whole hose, complete with the female end at the motor? If not, you can certainly get a new one from any Tohatsu/Nissan dealer. The male connector, which fastens to the motor lower cowling is also available, but is seldom a culprit in a vacuum leak that allows air into the fuel stream. However... the motor uses very little fuel, and a few bubbles on the suction side should not typically lower the bowl level, especially with a strong fuel pump. Still a good thing to address, as the problem will only get worse over time, until is does cause a too-lean condition.

One thought is that everything here may still be fuel-related, since you have good spark when the motor won't run. I'm leaning away from the CD box, as they are very reliable, and it seems you don't run long enough for it to overheat. In the shop, we would rule out the CD box by swapping in a "known good" spare to test.

The plug condition would indicate rich running. While this may be from choking and a lot of choked starting, it's still very possible that there is a carb problem. These carbs have very small, very high-velocity passages compared with carbs of yesteryear, to satisfy the EPA emission requirements. I have had a few of these (very VERY close tolerance) 4/5/6 carbs that looked OK, yet just would not behave perfectly, even after extensive and proper cleaning. By "proper" cleaning, I mean a _complete_ disassembly, including the jet, "nozzle" (or emulsion tube in old fogey talk), idle mixture screw, (the one buried beneath the EPA-required brass plug), and a long soaking in "real" submersion carb cleaner, such as Tyme, followed by a blow-out with compressed air. This thorough cleaning usually fixes these hard-to-diagnose mixture issues.

For a point of reference, I'd like to relate a similar problem that occurred in our shop a few years ago. We had a 4/5/6 carb that was almost perfect, but would occasionally deliver mixtures that were way off, as evidenced by the plug coloration, and poor running. We couldn't find a concrete fault with the original carb. A replacement carb fixed the issue, but the mechanic wasn't satisfied that he couldn't fix the almost-new carb. So, on a slow day, and after many hours of very careful disassembly and reassembly over clean blotter paper, an almost obscene amount of bright lighting, a good magnifying lens, and very close inspection, the mechanic did eventually find an almost microscopic fragment of metal in the air bleed circuit. Possibly left over from the manufacturing process. Obviously, no shop that expects productivity is going to spend an entire day on a 6 hp carb. Our guy did it on an off day, to satisfy his curiosity.

My thinking at this point is that you could go through the carb one more time, being super diligent and very thorough, and see if that helps. If you're still stuck, see if you can get the motor to a dealer, and see what they say. As for warranty or not, explain the whole situation to them, let them diagnose the issue, and if the cost seems unreasonable, plead your case of being only a week out of warranty. But your problem seems to be getting very difficult to diagnose in the field, especially without the resources of a dealer shop at hand.
 

loserboy

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Re: Nissan 6hp running problems

I replaced the fuel line with bulb as one unit, using the original connectors to tank and engine. I replaced the engine connector today because of the noted looseness and leakage, particularly when the bulb was pumped firmly. The seapage stopped, but no change to the engine behavior. I continued to see the transparent fuel filter gradually empty of fuel and fill with air while the engine was running; I pumped the bulb until it was quite firm, but could not squeeze any fuel into the filter. I then pulled the fuel line entering the fuel pump off, resulting in a blast of pressure, and relief of the bulb pressure. This would imply pressure backing out of the fuel pump, causing the air accumulation, rather than an air leak in the fuel line. A few drops of fuel did squirt out of the fuel pump entry port, but no steady flow of air or gas; nor did there seem to be much suction with my finger on it. I connected a vacuumm gauge to the fuel pump entry port and got initial reading of about 3cm of water (kind of an average as the needle jumps all over with the cycling of the pump), which gradually increased to about 7.5cm of water before I pulled the gauge off (I think this is within the working limits of the pump). I then reconnected the fuel lines, and the whole thing began behaving normally, with the pump drawing fuel through the filter normally, no reaccumulation of air, and no more stalling for the 15 minutes or so that I let it run at varying throttle settings.
This is incredibly aggravating and leaves me with no faith in this motor; I actually almost lost my boat on the rocks last year when this motor cut while I was transiting a cut through some rocks during a squall last year, and the wind backed so I couldn't sail out. As I recall, I got as far as disassembling the fuel pump last fall, without any obvious problem found - the diaphragm appeared to be in good shape. I suspect the problem l've had lies with some vapor lock or blockage in the pump itself. I'll run the engine again for prolonged times in the bucket in the next couple of days to make sure I can trust it to get me up the river to haul out, then try to find somebody to help me haul it out to the boat again! I wonder if I shouldn't just replace the whole fuel pump on principle, though it's not clear what problem it had if it works now.
There is an ongoing argument in my motorcycle magazines about whether to store the engine with the carb full of (stabilized) fuel, or to run it dry prior to storage. What's your opinion? Thanks again.
 

loserboy

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Re: Nissan 6hp running problems

I replaced the fuel line with bulb as one unit, using the original connectors to tank and engine. I replaced the engine connector today because of the noted looseness and leakage, particularly when the bulb was pumped firmly. The seapage stopped, but no change to the engine behavior. I continued to see the transparent fuel filter gradually empty of fuel and fill with air while the engine was running; I pumped the bulb until it was quite firm, but could not squeeze any fuel into the filter. I then pulled the fuel line entering the fuel pump off, resulting in a blast of pressure, and relief of the bulb pressure. This would imply pressure backing out of the fuel pump, causing the air accumulation, rather than an air leak in the fuel line. A few drops of fuel did squirt out of the fuel pump entry port, but no steady flow of air or gas; nor did there seem to be much suction with my finger on it. I connected a vacuumm gauge to the fuel pump entry port and got initial reading of about 3cm of water (kind of an average as the needle jumps all over with the cycling of the pump), which gradually increased to about 7.5cm of water before I pulled the gauge off (I think this is within the working limits of the pump). I then reconnected the fuel lines, and the whole thing began behaving normally, with the pump drawing fuel through the filter normally, no reaccumulation of air, and no more stalling for the 15 minutes or so that I let it run at varying throttle settings.
This is incredibly aggravating and leaves me with no faith in this motor; I actually almost lost my boat on the rocks last year when this motor cut while I was transiting a cut through some rocks during a squall last year, and the wind backed so I couldn't sail out. As I recall, I got as far as disassembling the fuel pump last fall, without any obvious problem found - the diaphragm appeared to be in good shape. I suspect the problem l've had lies with some vapor lock or blockage in the pump itself. I'll run the engine again for prolonged times in the bucket in the next couple of days to make sure I can trust it to get me up the river to haul out, then try to find somebody to help me haul it out to the boat again! I wonder if I shouldn't just replace the whole fuel pump on principle, though it's not clear what problem it had if it works now.
There is an ongoing argument in my motorcycle magazines about whether to store the engine with the carb full of (stabilized) fuel, or to run it dry prior to storage. What's your opinion? Thanks again.
 

pvanv

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Re: Nissan 6hp running problems

You do have a difficult-to-diagnose problem. It's the kind of problem that my uncle termed "aggranoyous", for a combination of aggravating and annoying. Having (once upon a time) endured the uncertainty of an unreliable old OB on my personal sailboat, I understand your situation all too well. I once even threatened to just unclamp the motor, and pitch it overboard.

It's not necessarily unusual to see a bubble of air in the fuel filter. We get that all the time on old 1960's V8 cars that have a clear fuel filter. If the filter is vertical, the bubble will float up and get purged as the fuel flows through, but if it's in a horizontal orientation, the bubble can just sit there "forever". Small incoming bubbles in the fuel line can accumulate in that high spot in the filter.

The suction that your pump was pulling seems sufficient. It only needs enough vacuum to pull the fuel up a couple of feet from the tank. In fact, at those suction readings, I have seen a primer bulb collapse if there was a restriction between the bulb and the tank, such as a clogged filter.

Regarding the way the problem seemed to magically clear, well, as I mentioned in a previous post, there may have been a bit of debris of one sort or another that finally dislodged. This may have been in the carb itself. Of course, if that's the case, there is the possibility that the hunk of stuff is still floating around in a small passage in the carb somewhere, and the problem could recur if it again finds a place to clog. For that matter, it may have gotten sucked through, in which case, it has disappeared out through the exhaust by now.

What makes your particular issue difficult to diagnose is that you have conflicting symptoms. The backfire at the end of the stall would tend to indicate a lean condition. Yet, the dark plug would indicate the opposite problem -- too rich. Of course, if the plug got dark from a lot of choked starting, it might take "forever" to burn clean, if ever. So the sooty plug may not be all that good an indicator of what is happening. A new plug might tell us more.

I doubt that you are getting a "vapor lock", since you indicated that you had a good fuel level in the bowl, even immediately after the stalling. A vapor lock would cause the carb to run low/lean and eventually get so dry that the motor would stall. Normally it would then not restart, since the vapor lock would prevent fuel delivery. These pumps aren't too prone to suffering from vapor lock, as they pull such a strong vacuum, and run in a relatively cool environment. They will typically draw air out and fuel up 3 or more feet.

I agree that further testing would be prudent. If the problem was a tiny debris clog, you may well be in the clear now. Testing will tell.

As for the question of storage (wet or dry), there is ongoing debate on that topic. One of our competitors stores all their motors wet (with stabilized fuel). They seem to have good results. I have had mixed results with wet storage, since sometimes, especially with E-10 fuel, the stuff in the carb turns bad over the winter. If there's any chance of any water blended in the fuel, even with stabilizer, I have seen it turn to a jello-like goo over the winter. That can make it impossible to clean the carb, because the aluminum can corrode when exposed to that junk for months. In some cases, we have had to replace carbs because of that. We are now storing all our motors with the entire fuel system dry.
 

loserboy

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Re: Nissan 6hp running problems

Ran motor for ~15 minutes today without stalling; bogs slightly if rev'ed quickly but no problem sustaining higher rpms; it sucks the largish new fuel filter apparently bone dry, but some fuel must be getting through, as the system would have used up all of the fuel in the lines and bowl if nothing was getting through, and it did not stall. This bothers me still - I may take apart the fuel pump tomorrow just to make sure nothing is amiss. I sure would like to find something to blame all this on. Thanks again.
 

loserboy

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Re: Nissan 6hp running problems

After several days of starting and running fine, except some hesitancy on reving, today the motor reverted to idling down and stalling, then being difficult to start, along again with completely emptying the large, transparent fuel filter of all fuel. I finally got it to run and warm, coinciding with pumping the filter partly full with the bulb. I looked down on the picnic table that I bolt the engine to, and saw a 9mm head metric bolt lying adjacent to the motor, soaked in gasoline - it is not currently leaking gasoline! This apparently was bolted in from underneath, holding in place the fuel line connector to the chassis; I wouldn't think this bolt would normally be exposed to the passing fuel, with it's absence causing a leak of fuel or allowing air into the line; maybe the fitting is cracked? I replaced and tightened it - I'll see tomorrow how the engine and filter behave.
 

pvanv

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Re: Nissan 6hp running problems

Are you using a Factory fuel filter? It should be Tohatsu p/n 369-02230-0, which is not especially "large".

Is the bolt that you found the one that attaches the 2-prong fuel connector to the lower cowl? Maybe the connector has a crack, allowing air to leak into the line. If pumping fuel with the primer bulb masks the problem, then it would appear that you have a fuel delivery problem -- possibly sucking air into the fuel stream in lieu of gas. If the retaining bolt was overtightened, and damaged the threaded brass insert in the connector, that might cause a crack in the connector...
 

islandfrank

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Re: Nissan 6hp running problems

Are you using a Factory fuel filter? It should be Tohatsu p/n 369-02230-0, which is not especially "large".

Is the bolt that you found the one that attaches the 2-prong fuel connector to the lower cowl? Maybe the connector has a crack, allowing air to leak into the line. If pumping fuel with the primer bulb masks the problem, then it would appear that you have a fuel delivery problem -- possibly sucking air into the fuel stream in lieu of gas. If the retaining bolt was overtightened, and damaged the threaded brass insert in the connector, that might cause a crack in the connector...

Paul, was this issue ever resolved? the last post I can see is from Nov 2009 and then disappears.
I have the same issue as the user "pvanv"
thanks
 

islandfrank

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Joined
Aug 8, 2012
Messages
2
Re: Nissan 6hp running problems

Are you using a Factory fuel filter? It should be Tohatsu p/n 369-02230-0, which is not especially "large".

Is the bolt that you found the one that attaches the 2-prong fuel connector to the lower cowl? Maybe the connector has a crack, allowing air to leak into the line. If pumping fuel with the primer bulb masks the problem, then it would appear that you have a fuel delivery problem -- possibly sucking air into the fuel stream in lieu of gas. If the retaining bolt was overtightened, and damaged the threaded brass insert in the connector, that might cause a crack in the connector...

Paul, was this issue ever resolved? the last post I can see is from Nov 2009 and then disappears.
I have the same issue as the user "loserboy"
thanks
 

pvanv

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Apr 20, 2008
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6,559
Re: Nissan 6hp running problems

Paul, was this issue ever resolved? the last post I can see is from Nov 2009 and then disappears.
I have the same issue as the user "loserboy"
thanks

I never heard any more from the owner...
 
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