Nissan 30EFI 4stroke vs 40TLDI 2stroke

[mnormand]

First post here, hello to all. Middle aged guy who's had many boats over the years, small and midsized. All 2stroke motors. Not quite an old fart yet. LOL

I'm looking hard at these two motors for my 15ft Alweld alum boat. Tiller, short shaft, must have elec start. TnT optional, but probably would be nice. Never owned a tiller with TnT.

About 6-8 years ago this boat began life with a manual 25Merc who lost a fight with a stump at full speed.

Then a new Merc40 carb model, manual start. It absolutely hated to run slow in shallow drive, dealer sez just give more gas. That would drive the transon down lower and hit more stuff. And the tattletale was forever clogging with minor debris. But I thought the gas assist cylinder was the best thing yet, hitting anything fast or slow would lift/return motor to position slowly and safely.

Then a new Yam25 carb model, elec start. Great, but after about 3-4 years I want more HP again. But I hate to get away from the light weight of about 115#. I run lots at slow speed/shallow drive in swamp waters.

I guess my main questions are:
Nissan 40hp: runs well in shallow tilt/slow? What happens with you hit stump fast or slow with TnT and holding on the tiller? Can you use the TnT while at speed with only one hand? I can't find pics of this tiller setup and where switch is located.

Nissan 30hp: I wonder how much of that I will feel over the 2stroke Yam25?

Is the TLDI and 10hp more worth that much more money? TLDI=complications? Or bulletproof?

All input appreciated, especially any other 30-40hp short shaft motors as well I should consider. If you own a TLDI, sure would like more discussion...

Thanks and regards to the forum,
Mark

 

[Sea Rider]

Re: Nissan 30EFI 4stroke vs 40TLDI 2stroke

I guess my main questions are:
Nissan 40hp: runs well in shallow tilt/slow? What happens with you hit stump fast or slow with TnT and holding on the tiller? Can you use the TnT while at speed with only one hand? I can't find pics of this tiller setup and where switch is located.

Nissan 30hp: I wonder how much of that I will feel over the 2stroke Yam25?

Is the TLDI and 10hp more worth that much more money? TLDI=complications? Or bulletproof?

All input appreciated, especially any other 30-40hp short shaft motors as well I should consider. If you own a TLDI, sure would like more discussion...

Thanks and regards to the forum,
Mark

A 30 HP 2 strokes has more hole shot punch and better final speed than same 25, 2 strokes Yam engine.

A TLDI is more efficient than any 30 /2 strokes, also costs much more, it's a 2 strokes taken to the limit electronically speaking and needs other type of service. Being a 2 strokes lover, would be the way to go for a nice tech update.

Happy Boating

 

[oldgradywhite]

Re: Nissan 30EFI 4stroke vs 40TLDI 2stroke

I would get the TLDI. Hands down.

 

[pvanv]

Re: Nissan 30EFI 4stroke vs 40TLDI 2stroke

They are both rock-solid motor designs, and will get similar fuel economy. If the boat has a USCG placard for HP, I would consider that most of my customers are not completely happy with less than 80% of placard rating. So if it's rated at 40 hp, 30 will be marginal. That aside, your boat is not especially heavy, so 30 should be "adequate" power.

These 2 motors are quite different designs; The 30 is port injected, while the TLDI is direct-injected into the combustion chambers. Either of these motors should run a water-separating fuel filter. The power tilt/trim is not intended as a safety against striking logs. Keep in mind that when in forward, the prop is pushing the motor forward -- the more throttle, the harder the LU is pushed forward. However, if you see a log, and immediately throttle back, either motor will probably kick up as you collide with the obstruction. With either motor, the tilt/trim is a one-handed operation. If you will be operating in debris-laden waters, and expect to strike the bottom occasionally, I would encourage the use of a prop-guard, http://www.propguard.net/ though that will sap a few HP due to increased drag.

While the EFI 30 starts "like a car" and idles very smoothly over long periods, if you will be doing a lot of idling, the break-in will be critical, as all 4-strokes will "make oil" when new, especially at low RPM, and in cold water. Just one of the characteristics of 4-strokes. The 30 is the "big brother" in the 25/30 family, so it is not de-tuned. It is about 44 pounds lighter than the 40, so hole shot and top speed will be helped somewhat by the lighter weight. The 30 is a bit simpler external design, because it does not need an air pump, and does not need to meter oil, but it does have the internal complexity of the 4-stroke valve train. It has onboard diagnostics, which can be read by a tech who has a factory diagnostic kit on a laptop.

The TLDI 40 may not idle down quite as far and still remain as smooth over very long periods of idling, as it will be subject to typical 2-stroke oil buildup in the combustion chambers. That clears almost immediately once the rpm's come up some. The TLDI will give better hole shot, both due to more HP, and because it's a 2-stroke design. The 40 is the "little sister" of the 40/50 family, so it is actually built as strong as a 50, and then slightly de-tuned. The onboard diagnostics on TLDIs actually display on the motor, or on the tach if you have one.

So, if idling a lot, and the boat and wallet are good with the TLDI 40, that would be my choice. To save some dollars and a few pounds, the 30 is fine.

OR... if you know that you will be running in very shallow and log-infested waters all the time, you could go with the 35 HP Jet Drive motor. That's the same TLDI frame as the 50, so it is very similar to the 40, and is intended for shallow water use.

 

[Sea Rider]

Re: Nissan 30EFI 4stroke vs 40TLDI 2stroke

If you will be operating in debris-laden waters, and expect to strike the bottom occasionally, I would encourage the use of a prop-guard, http://www.propguard.net/ though that will sap a few HP due to increased drag.

Although the idea of it's use is fantastic, prop guards are very prone to break when hitting sand beds or hard objects, have tried 2 on 2 -30 HP 2 strokes engines, both broke shortly into peaces Still have the holes drilled on cav plate to install them. Works perfect on open water, rescue & surf boats, etc. http://www.pbase.com/locozodiac/image/109764887

Happy Boating

 

[mnormand]

Re: Nissan 30EFI 4stroke vs 40TLDI 2stroke

wow, excellent info from all, thx very much to all. I'm very much enlightened. Thank you Paul for the extended reply that I can understand.

The 40TLDI is my favorite at present too. Dealer here can get one for $4595, then add 8.5% sales tax :-(( Realistically the money is not a huge factor, rather get something I'm satisfied with.

I loved the power of the Merc40, just didn't like the build quality. Had various small issues, just wasn't for me. I think the Nissan40 is going to be perfect.

Don't mean to belabor over logs, etc. But I do slide over a lot of trash where I go hunting. You know the drill, cut throttle to idle, slide over floating log, motor just rides over it and back down. Never used a TnT in that environment yet. I have to admit, that Merc with the gas assist worked absolutely beautifully at slow speeds. I could push down on the tiller and it would easily come up with the back pressure of the shock. All non TnT motors should have that. My Yam25 would be so much better.

Oh and that particular type of prop guard would get broken pretty quick here. I always run a stainless prop too, alum would get bent the first day, LOL. Its also interesting that jet drive outboards are non-existent here, but we don't have rocks, only soft logs and such.

Will decide in a couple of weeks when we budget for Xmas !

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Nissan 30EFI 4stroke vs 40TLDI 2stroke

Hint:

Have the dealer order the Tohatsu label and save money...There is a significant difference in the decal price between the two identical engines.

 

[KH780]

Re: Nissan 30EFI 4stroke vs 40TLDI 2stroke

Go with the Tohatsu hands down. Its more HP and has the 2-stroke dependability. Good luck and post some pics when you get her.

KH

 

[trendsetter240]

Re: Nissan 30EFI 4stroke vs 40TLDI 2stroke

Does it have to be a Nissan? If I were buying new I'd go for an Evinrude ETEC.

The model 30DR is a short shaft and only 146lbs. Some big benefits are no dealer maintenance for 3 years or 300 hours and no break in period. Also these motors are nearly silent at idle, highly fuel efficient and very low pollution.

Check out this review of the 25hp. Exactly the same as the 30hp.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVASo8y0fts&feature=related

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Nissan 30EFI 4stroke vs 40TLDI 2stroke

The Evinrude also has much less hole shot capability as it is only a two cylinder engine and requires as much maintenance as any other outboard does. The trick to this is the "no dealer required" words...The consumer is responsible to do the maintenance. The funny thing is that the other manufacturers DO NOT require dealer maintenance either Just that the maintenance be performed correctly. Also, the engine does have break-in period....The engine will not allow you to achieve maximum RPM until after that break-in time has been put on the engine. I actually like the E-Tec, but the incessant advertising hype is very misleading and really does a disservice to an otherwise fine outboard.

 

[trendsetter240]

Re: Nissan 30EFI 4stroke vs 40TLDI 2stroke

The Evinrude also has much less hole shot capability as it is only a two cylinder engine and requires as much maintenance as any other outboard does. The trick to this is the "no dealer required" words...The consumer is responsible to do the maintenance. The funny thing is that the other manufacturers DO NOT require dealer maintenance either Just that the maintenance be performed correctly. Also, the engine does have break-in period....The engine will not allow you to achieve maximum RPM until after that break-in time has been put on the engine. I actually like the E-Tec, but the incessant advertising hype is very misleading and really does a disservice to an otherwise fine outboard.

Well, when I compare manuals between the Tohatsu TLDI and the ETEC there are more recommended maintenance items for the Tohatsu.

Tohatsu manual:
"We do, however, recommend that you change your water pump impeller every year. We also recommend that you change the compressor drive belt, air filter, and fuel filter every 2 years or 200 hours."

Also it would appear the TLDI motors require a battery while the ETEC does not. That may be a big benefit for those running small boats.

I disagree with you on the break in process for the ETEC. The standard break in process for a 2 cycle motor is far more extensive then the process for an ETEC. The ETEC limits the engine RPM to the recommended maximum for the first X number of hours. The onboard computer manages extra oiling as needed.

Point is the ETEC handles all that for you while other motors require much, much more time, effort and attention during the break in process.


Besides all the above, I just wanted to throw that ETEC option out there for the OP. Talk to your local dealer about the benefits of ETEC over the other models and see for yourself.

Cheers

 

[pvanv]

Re: Nissan 30EFI 4stroke vs 40TLDI 2stroke

Tohatsu manual:
"We do, however, recommend that you change your water pump impeller every year. We also recommend that you change the compressor drive belt, air filter, and fuel filter every 2 years or 200 hours."

Also it would appear the TLDI motors require a battery while the ETEC does not. That may be a big benefit for those running small boats.

I disagree with you on the break in process for the ETEC. The standard break in process for a 2 cycle motor is far more extensive then the process for an ETEC. The ETEC limits the engine RPM to the recommended maximum for the first X number of hours. The onboard computer manages extra oiling as needed.

Cheers

If you are suggesting that the E-Tec does not require periodic maintenance of normal wear items, such as the impeller, you are mistaken. Tohatsu recommends annual inspection or replacement of the impeller because if run in sandy silt, the pumps do wear, regardless of brand, E-Tec included. In the cold clean fresh waters of the Great Lakes, it is not uncommon to get 3 years from an impeller.

The Tohatsu TLDI ECU manages oil delivery (that's one of its jobs), not unlike the E-Tec. As Elvin mentioned, the 3-cylinder TLDI will definitely beat the 2-cylinder E-Tec in hole shot and smoothness. The direct-injected 2-stroke technologies are similar to a degree, but the Tohatsu TLDI, with its air-boosted injection, was designed from the ground up as a Commercial motor, and is as reliable and bulletproof as they get.

Yes, the TLDI requires a battery, however you were comparing 30 hp motors to 40 hp motors (apples to rutabagas). The Tohatsu 30 does not require a battery. Still, I'd rather not pull-start a motor of that size, since I'm not a teenager any more.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Nissan 30EFI 4stroke vs 40TLDI 2stroke

Well, when I compare manuals between the Tohatsu TLDI and the ETEC there are more recommended maintenance items for the Tohatsu.

Tohatsu manual:
"We do, however, recommend that you change your water pump impeller every year. We also recommend that you change the compressor drive belt, air filter, and fuel filter every 2 years or 200 hours."

Also it would appear the TLDI motors require a battery while the ETEC does not. That may be a big benefit for those running small boats.

I disagree with you on the break in process for the ETEC. The standard break in process for a 2 cycle motor is far more extensive then the process for an ETEC. The ETEC limits the engine RPM to the recommended maximum for the first X number of hours. The on-board computer manages extra oiling as needed.

Point is the ETEC handles all that for you while other motors require much, much more time, effort and attention during the break in process.


Besides all the above, I just wanted to throw that ETEC option out there for the OP. Talk to your local dealer about the benefits of ETEC over the other models and see for yourself.

Cheers

I think you have misunderstood what Evinrude, Tohatsu and I said. You originally referred to the misleading Evinrude advertising about "dealer required..." and then used a statement out of the Tohatsu manual about "recommended" to support your argument....And that is where you have been sucked into the advertising trap.

Tohatsu doesn't require that a dealer do the maintentence any more than the Evinrude does....And if you go back and read that Evinrude warranty statement you will find that the "no dealer" misleading statement does not apply to engines used in saltwater.

As to the Etec managing the break-in process. Your kind of, sort of, correct. The etec's built in hour meter does limit the RPM, on it's own, until you reach the break-in point. With the Tohatsu you actually have to be able to tell time and to move the throttle handle on your own But, I'll give you that minor point The battery issue is a legitimate point for the Etec on the 40 hp comparison....Just like engine performance, in every other respect, are points in Tohatsu's favor.

Keep in mind I like Etec. The designs are almost as reliable as the Tohastu TLDI system and while the track record for Etec has been spotty, while they have gone through their berthing pains, I wouldn't have any reservations about trusting one for my use on the lake. My original point to you was more about not regurgitating the ridiculous, misleading, advertising hype than a criticism of Etec models.

 

[mnormand]

Re: Nissan 30EFI 4stroke vs 40TLDI 2stroke

All good stuff !

The Etec is probably out because its not much more than what I have now. (Yam25).

I do have minor concerns with continuing to run one battery for troll motor, 2 depthfinders, Qbeam sometimes, etc. My Yam has a rope start backup. If that 40TLDI had a rope backup, whew that would be great. I'll have to rethink the whole process. Its not like I bass fish for 12hrs on the troll motor, just occasional light use.

I assume the 40TLDI has a very sufficient battery charging output at 12V, 280W, 23A

I'm ok on the TLDI maint issues, the dealer even told me that if I did it on time, and documented all, bought my oil from a dealer, etc, that would be no problem. I can handle everything I've read so far here.

Great discussion, thx to all, I learned a lot !

Over and out,
Mark

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Nissan 30EFI 4stroke vs 40TLDI 2stroke

The battery provides the voltage and amps to energise the ignition system on the TLDI...Same story on the Mercury Optimax or the Yamaha HPDI. No battery, no way to energise the ignition system. On a boat with a trolling motor you will need to have two batteries. A deep cycle for the accessories and a 1000 CCA battery for the engine. Their is no required maintenance as such on the TLDI, dealer or otherwise. But, for instance, if you put 1000 hours on the engine, never changed the gear oil and had your lower unit gears tear up...Tohatsu would blame you for abuse and not honor the warranty. So, smart money says to keep up, within reason, the maintenance schedule.