Newbie with Johnson 70hp power tilt/trim question.

Mack17

Cadet
Joined
Aug 30, 2013
Messages
15
Hey everyone I'm new to this forum and it looks like to be the perfect place to ask this question.I have a 1980 Johnson 70Hp with power tilt/trim.I just had to replace the tilt cylinder cap and the orings on the manual release valve screw due to leaks.I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how to start off with completely refilling the fluid and getting the air out of the system.Do you push the piston down into the cylinder then fill up the cylinder with fluid then top off at fluid port.Or do you start with the piston in the full up position? Also do the :TRIM: rams need to be up or down? Do you cycle it with the pump motor or by hand? I tried by filling with both the tilt and trim rams fully up and got it to work once but it stopped working right so I cracked the fill cap to let air out and the trim rams stopped working.I somehow keep getting like an air pocket.I just basically need a step by step procedure if possible.Thanks for any and all help in advance.-Ron-
 

Mack17

Cadet
Joined
Aug 30, 2013
Messages
15
Re: Newbie with Johnson 70hp power tilt/trim question.

Ok so here's where im at with this issue.For some reason with the motor hooked to the tilt shaft the tilt goes down slow and the trim wont engage once all the way down.But tilt will go up at normal speed.When I disconnect the motor from tilt shaft and take off the weight the tilt shaft wont go down but the trim shafts start working up and down and as soon as I put the weight of motor back onto the tilt shaft it goes right back to the tilt going back down slowly and back up at normal speed with no response from the trim shafts when i take it all the way down.So im stuck on what to do.I dont know if theres air in it or what.Im told that these units self bleed by running them up and down which ive down but nothing seems to help.Any ideas? Thanks
 
Last edited:

RRitt

Captain
Joined
Mar 30, 2006
Messages
3,319
Re: Newbie with Johnson 70hp power tilt/trim question.

lift the system up and go have a beer. When you come back is it still up?
if yes then your manual release and valve body are good. If not, then not.

once you VB is a known good then hotwire the motor and see if it goes up and down smoothly. Make sure the fluid is topped off properly. If the motor spins strongly but the systems does not move smoothy then you may have a binding in the brackets and shafts.

if the motor does not spin or does not hold rpm then you may have an old or failing motor.
 

Mack17

Cadet
Joined
Aug 30, 2013
Messages
15
Re: Newbie with Johnson 70hp power tilt/trim question.

I appreciate the reply "RRITT" Motor will stay up but something is wrong somewhere in it.I've tried everything and still when the weight of ob is on the tilt shaft it goes up and down but the trim does'nt work right it takes forever to go all the way down.but if i disconnect ob motor from tilt shaft and go up and down with switch the tilt stops working and the trim starts working. They come out together at same time but did notice they go back down one at a time.I don't know what the deal is.I even tried back bleeding it and still nothing.Either there is still alot of air or something is clogged or the trim side is just shot.I tried to crack the trim cylinder caps loose to free any air but could'nt get them to budge.Im at my witts end.Guess ill just have to shell out $2-300 for another unit.
 

clanton

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jul 9, 2001
Messages
4,876
Re: Newbie with Johnson 70hp power tilt/trim question.

Do you have the T&T system that has the 2 trim cylinders, 1 tilt cylinder, with electric motor in a neat package that fits between the transom brackets?
 

Mack17

Cadet
Joined
Aug 30, 2013
Messages
15
Re: Newbie with Johnson 70hp power tilt/trim question.

Hey "Clanton" yea that's exactly the type of unit I have.
 

clanton

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jul 9, 2001
Messages
4,876
Re: Newbie with Johnson 70hp power tilt/trim question.

I will get some info for you later today. First tip unit installed on motor, should self bleed.
 

clanton

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jul 9, 2001
Messages
4,876
Re: Newbie with Johnson 70hp power tilt/trim question.

The trim cylinders and tilt cylinder is filled when piston is pushed to bottom of cylinder. Use T&T fluid or Dexron 11 transmission fluid.

Did you replace the trim ram cap o-ring and scraper, sometimes these get hard causing the ram not to move with normal pressure.
 

RRitt

Captain
Joined
Mar 30, 2006
Messages
3,319
Re: Newbie with Johnson 70hp power tilt/trim question.

I appreciate the reply "RRITT" Motor will stay up but something is wrong somewhere in it.I've tried everything and still when the weight of ob is on the tilt shaft it goes up and down but the trim does'nt work right it takes forever to go all the way down.but if i disconnect ob motor from tilt shaft and go up and down with switch the tilt stops working and the trim starts working. They come out together at same time but did notice they go back down one at a time.I don't know what the deal is.I even tried back bleeding it and still nothing.Either there is still alot of air or something is clogged or the trim side is just shot.I tried to crack the trim cylinder caps loose to free any air but could'nt get them to budge.Im at my witts end.Guess ill just have to shell out $2-300 for another unit.

my previous reply may give some insight but does not actually apply to your system. I incorrectly assumed 1980 would be the twin ram system. On a three ram system all three rams are connected to the same fluid pressure. If one of them jams then the other two move faster. By the same token, if one of them has a broken oring then none of them will lift. When normally lowering, the engine is pushing down on the tilt piston and the trim pistons won't move until the engine is also pushing down on them. When going up, the weight of the engine causes all three pistons to lift in unison until the trim pistons can't extend any further. When the trim piston are fully extended then all the fluid is diverted to the tilt ram and the engine appears to lift much faster.

Trim systems are generally filled when fully raised. This is because the raised position requires more fluid in the rams. Many systems will run out of fluid if filled when lowered. Those same systems are pressurized when lowered and the air in reservoir shrinks to accomodate extra fluid (the rams have less fluid in them when retracted and the unused fluid is pushed back into reservoir). Please consult your manual. If you remvoe the filler cap in wrong position then you could end up injured or with a face full of oil. Some trim systems have oversized reservoirs and are filled when lowered. These systems tend to develop a negative pressure in reservoir and generally don't last as long because they suck moisture in through motor seals.

As regards your system, maybe I don't understand because I'm not seeing anything wrong with your description. It is normal for trim pistons to stick or retract differently if they do not have weight of engine. If they misbehave with weight of engine on them then it is usually lack of pressure from pump or mechanical sticking in trim cylinder (or transom brackets). Lack of pressure from pump should create drift down problems while mechanical problems don't.
 
Last edited:

Mack17

Cadet
Joined
Aug 30, 2013
Messages
15
Re: Newbie with Johnson 70hp power tilt/trim question.

Hey guys I really appreciate all the help."Clanton" yea I've been using the dextron 11 fluid.I didnt replace the trim caps just the tilt cylinder cap.which was $113(crazy) it came with the orings and wiper seal."RRITT" What I've noticed is when the motor is raised all the way up it will hold itself up under pressure and does'nt loose pressure and drop which is a good sign.With the weight of the motor off the tilt ram the trim rams will go up and down with no problem but I get no response from tilt ram when I push the down button it will only go up without any weight on it.When the motor weight is on the tilt ram it will go down but once it gets down to where the trim rams should engage it starts taking forever for the trim rams to go all the way down.I can get it to go 95% of the way after a while but when I let off the switch the rams come back up a little bit.If I hit the up button from that point everything works fine.So the issue is with the trim rams going down after the tilt ram goes all the way down.so it must be a pressure issue from the transfer from tilt to trim.Does that make any sense?I don't have a manual and can't find anything online to refer to.Should I complety empty the system of fluid and start over? If I do I need to refil when both the tilt and trim rams are in the full up position correct? And once filled and put the fill cap in do I run the motor up first or down and then back up? Also should I move motor by the button or work it up and down by hand? I really hope I can get this thing working again.It was working fine until the last time I was out and it started leaking fluid from top of cylinder cap.So don't know what ended up happening.unless something got clogged up somewhere.Who knows Im just getting bumbed out from not fishing.Thanks again guys~Ron
 
Last edited:

RRitt

Captain
Joined
Mar 30, 2006
Messages
3,319
Re: Newbie with Johnson 70hp power tilt/trim question.

Honestly your description sounds like the system is working but just not as fast as you would like. It could be anything from a weak battery to low fluid to bad pump gear to plugged passage to nothing at all.

If it lifts fine but doesn't lower properly then it could be a blown or jammed reverse check valve. Most other hydraulic parts cause failure in both directions. Grab hold of the prop and see if you can hold the engine up even while trim is running "down".
 

Mack17

Cadet
Joined
Aug 30, 2013
Messages
15
Re: Newbie with Johnson 70hp power tilt/trim question.

Thanks for the heads up I'll give it a try and see what happens.As to the battery and fluid level.The battery is a new deep cycle and fluid is completely filled but will recheck.If it comes down to a blocked passage do you think I could blast some air into the cylinder line or would that just create more issues with blowing out seals and orings?
 

Mack17

Cadet
Joined
Aug 30, 2013
Messages
15
Re: Newbie with Johnson 70hp power tilt/trim question.

P.s It was working fine before it first started leaking from tilt cylinder cap and the trim was way faster to how it is now.Just for the heads up if that helps any.
 

RRitt

Captain
Joined
Mar 30, 2006
Messages
3,319
Re: Newbie with Johnson 70hp power tilt/trim question.

If you don't have bleed down then it is not likely to be a cylinder problem. Internal cylinder problems almost always bleed down. External problems (leaking out top) let water in and can cause permanent damage but really aren't a problem in and of themselves. The tilt cap side of piston is a low pressure operation except when the engine operates in reverse. I'd put the system on a bench and make sure it is properly filled. Then I'd focus in on the valves.
 

Mack17

Cadet
Joined
Aug 30, 2013
Messages
15
Re: Newbie with Johnson 70hp power tilt/trim question.

I appreciate all the help from you guys so far.I checked fluid level today and it was full.I think you're right RRITT about it maybe being the valves.I messed with it earlier and the only way I can get the trim rams down at the speed they're supposed to go is to push down on lower unit while holding the button down.And it will go all the way down and at correct speed.When I don't push down it goes way too slow and doesnt go all the way down.So who knows.I've been working at it for two weeks and ran out of steam and patience.I think i'm just going to take it out and replace it with a rebuilt unit.And sell this one as a partially working unit that may need rebuild for like $50 or whatever I can get out of it.I'm sure someone will buy it to rebuild.I found one on ebay for $200 so not a big deal.It will save alot of time and effort.
 
Top