New Honda BF50 assistance please.

[Skinnywater]

Hello,<br />This is a 2002 BF50jet. It has approx. 15 hours on it. It powers a NorthRiver 16 ft. Renegade.<br />The exact symptom;Say I've been running in 1-2 ft of water for the past 10-15 minutes at 45-5,000 RPM (it redlines at 6,000) to stay on top of it all. Now I'm shooting for a hole to stop in. I find deeper water and lay off the throttle <suddenly> and turn off the motor. After a while (30 minutes or so)I restart the engine and a large amount of blue oil smoke burns off. An unacceptable large amount of smelly engine oil smoke.<br />Now, If the conditions are all identical, EXCEPT, I idle down before killing the motor, no smoke. On cold start, no smoke. On hot start, no smoke. While at redline or any other time, no smoke. Only when there is >immediate< shutdown after a hotrun is there smoke.<br />Now, to complicate matters only a bit further. I have ZERO confidence in my selling dealers service department and of course, they've never heard of this.<br />The oil level is perfect and the motor is flawless in all other ways. <br />Thank you.

 

[hondon]

Re: New Honda BF50 assistance please.

Lets fly this scenario by you.Running that riffle your carb is pumping out full volume of nice atomized fuel until it gets to the combustion chamber where the heat there vaporizes it for nice clean combustion.So instead of allowing this mixture to proceed to the chamber the motor gets shut off.All that atomized fuel in the manifold is allowed to condense on the mani walls.Plus you will have at least one valve hanging open allowing that mixture to condense there as well as mix with a little oil in the valve train.Hope that helps explain what's up. If you are not consuming huge amounts of oil and things are working good,go with it.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: New Honda BF50 assistance please.

Hello hondon,<br />I like your scenario and I want to go with it.<br />However,<br />I'm talking about a lot of smoke here. Hmm, lets see, say 4 times more smoke then a cold start of a 1968 Mercury 100.

 

[hondon]

Re: New Honda BF50 assistance please.

That's alot of smoke.Are you fowling plugs?Are we ingesting a little water through the exhaust on these shut downs?What has this dealer done for you and what opportuninty have you given him to do it?If you are concerned about your machine you need to make those concerns known now ,while you are under warranty.Any good dealer will fix or give you an explaination of why it's happening and Honda would be very interested to know if they did not do that for you.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: New Honda BF50 assistance please.

No, the plugs have not misfired. The smoke is positively oil.<br />Upon delivery a month and a half ago before it was even operated the oil level was 1 quart too full. I adjusted it. There was a cut fuel hose as it passed under a floatation/seat box. I fixed this. The electrical connector on the fuel guage was bent over. I completely rewired and added a fuse box and corrected the haphazzard wiring myself. <br />The first outing, the boat wouldn't plane and its first trip to the service department. They added a plate between the hull and the jetpump intake. No clear explanation why my Revenge needed this while others, including the demo didn't. A week later I got the boat back with a LOT of scratches, dirt, and more scratches and a missing trailer clearance light.<br />While I have tremendous faith in Honda and NorthRiver, I'm scared to death in the thought of using my selling dealer again.<br />While I let the dealer know of the first problems I found and corrected, I was polite and understanding. The scratches, dirt and clearance light, I bit my lip and hoped I'd never have to see them again.<br /><br />If I was told someone would call they wouldn't. If I was told they would deliver it on this day it wasn't. If I was told this would happen it didn't. <br /><br />Since the condition/problem only occurs at this exact situation makes this a likely "no problem found" or worse yet, those guys actually using my boat to find the problem! <br />I was desperately hoping to encounter other BF40/50 owners with the same complaint. Or a possible DTB of a known problem.<br /> <br />The next nearest Honda dealer is 70 miles away, I know nothing of them. I've got 3 years on the warranty. Maybe I'll just idle down a few minutes before shutting down.<br /><br />If you don't mind, what would you do?

 

[hondon]

Re: New Honda BF50 assistance please.

Sounds like you are the victim of an overzealous salesman that made promises to you he or she could'nt keep. This lead to the very sloppy rigging job that you got but the fact that it got out the doorlike this leaves someone needing to be held accountable for.Does that sound about right?Anyway, the fact that this was overfilled with oil could be a factor in your dilema.We have several 50/35 jets running the rivers here and have had no reports comparable to yours. Did you recieve a predelivery inspection form to sign on delivery of this engine. If not Honda would be quite interested in that.Is the cowl labeled 35 honda jet power or does it still have the 50 hp prop decal?That would indicate that a jet conversion has been added to this without changing a nessessary gear under the powerhead.I'll stick with you but it's getting late and tomorrow is salmon opener up here. Give you more in the evening.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: New Honda BF50 assistance please.

Thanks Hondon for your help.<br />The engine by its own model number indicate it is a jet ready BF50/35 (BF50A2SRJA). It is labeled "Jet". I signed a PDI form. I lowered the oil level myself before I even put it into the water.<br /><br />I have to qualify myself and it may lend some light on a possible diagnosis. Bear in mind I'm leaning in the same direction you have suggested. This very well could be a "condition" rather then a problem.<br />I'm a Master Auto Technician by trade for the last 30 years. For the last 15 years I've been a lead Mercedes Benz Tech for the local dealership.<br />I'm only mentioning this because I'm sure my engine doesn't have a hardpart defect and it's possible I'm being overly critical of my own equipment.<br /> I think that it is a combination of the proloned high RPM run with a sudden shutdown. Again, I was fishing for a common condition with other BF50/40 owners.<br />In retrospect, the condition I'm introducing this symptom isn't a likely scenario for most people. I.E., I can't imagine a propeller propelled outboard being run at high RPM and suddenly shutdown very often. I'm doing it to keep from settling into rocks in very skinnywater.<br />There are a few things I've considered. One is that the oil is pooling inside the valve cover. This isn't likely since this would cause smoking and excessive blowby at high RPM. Another is, with the increased manifold vacuum with sudden closing of the throttle, the crankcase ventilation dumps an abnormal amount of oil into the intake. Additionally, a paragraph in my owners manuel says,"If the throttle is suddenly closed after full throttle operation, engine speed may drop below the specified idle RPM, and that could activate the engine protection system momentarily." I'm shutting it down before the idle stabilizes. A clue, of sorts, to another "condition". Finally,the sudden shutdown is causing hotspots within the engine. <br />Then again, and this may be the most likely cause and correction. Find the deeper water to settle in, idle down for 30 seconds or so, then shutdown.<br />Since, I've come to realize you are a fellow professional and have likely stuck your neck out on this forum for a while, I feel confident I can trust your statement that you in fact haven't had complaints like mine with identical engines yourself. This leads me to believe the my own operating practices are causing the "condition".<br />Soon It will get its first oil change. 5-30 Redline synthetic will be in the crankcase. <br /><br />Thanks for your time and to this forum. I wish I could contribute more to this forum.<br />Good luck with the Salmon and throw a couple back for me. <br />Mike

 

[hondon]

Re: New Honda BF50 assistance please.

O.K., I'm back as I said I would be ,all rested and actually a little early from when I usually post.The company that I work for is both a Honda and Northriver dealer.Northriver has only been doing large scale production of boats for a short time but have been making and continue to make great boats .The dealer that you are working with is on a learning curve as to how different power packages work on a given boat.That won't excuse the sloppy rig but gives you some clarity on the jet intake issue.As for the oil overfill. Overfull by an entire quart will cause oil to be actually pouring out the dipstick so I doubt you were tht much over but I don't doubt you may have been overfilled.This can cause oil to puddle in areas it won't normally and only come out when you really squeeze this thing much the same as it takes fogging oil a long time to be burned completely out of a inboard.Break in is an issue as well. It sounds as if you received no predelivery instuction on this engine ,let alone some break in guidelines.What to do?Run it. Try the idle down thing. Keep an eye on your oil level.If you don't want to drive the extra 70 miles one way, pave things over with this dealer .

 

[hondon]

Re: New Honda BF50 assistance please.

Brother, looks like we posted one on top of the other.Always nice to talk with another wrench.Keep me posted.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: New Honda BF50 assistance please.

Yeah, the oil was way up the dipstick. I absolutely refuse to be as rude as some as my own customers and I was truely "the niceguy", so I didn't burn any bridges. I'm just afraid of that learning curve. <br />I do love this boats size, looks and design. And the motor has true heart.<br />If this were a perfect world, I'd have an BF75jet on this boat,it could easily take it. <br />Sooo, the winter project will be a jackplate and a lower prop unit so I can swap back and forth.<br />Pump for the river, prop for bigwater.<br />Then again, I may put the BF50 on ebay and buy and insatll the BF75 myself. Haven't decided yet.<br />The BF50 prop would run nice. The jets performance on the Sac is acceptable to me (25mph, loaded, 4800RPM). The BF75s performance would be above average for sure.<br /><br />You can appreciate I've already removed the rear floatation boxes. I've used quality stainless full hinges and latches on the front seat/floatation boxes, so the seats tilt now. The complete rewire I did included fusepanel,nav.lights, acc. plugs, bilge, low intensity interior night fishing(Striper/Sturgeon)lighting. I did my own install on the Pinpoint's speed/temp transducer and it was much better and closer to center then the dealers install on the demo. Had a buddy at our bodyshop do some handlettering, name and console switch labels and pinstriping, looks sharp <br /><br />Can you tell me, why such a beautifully manufactured, strong, stable and confident platform (the 16ft.Revenge, center console, step tank)is only rated for 45hp? <br /><br />Hondon, if you have some additional ideas concerning my power/boat package, I'd tow it 150 miles out of my way.<br />Mike