new engine old outdrive no gears

[irishjohn123]

Hi all
i have just taken possession of a boat that had a big old gas guzzling engine in it but the previous owner did not think to winterize ( a must in the Irish climate !) and as a result destroyed the thing. i have since installed a diesel engine from a truck and marinised it - no problems. however the shift lever wont go back in the reverse position it will go forward but not back, it will also not engage the gears and spins freely when pushed forward.
there is 2 black wires coming from the out-drive that are also not connected to anything and as i did not remove the engine from the boat have no idea where they are supposed to go any ideas ?
i have read the posts on here about dodgy old/ new cables and both of these are the red ones.
my questions are -
what do i have to remove at the out-drive to access the shift mechanism there and check for deposits blocking the shifting
what are the 2 wires for ?
does the prop have to be spinning for the drive to go into gear ?
also the bellows from the transom to the leg have busted and the exhaust smoke is coming out from the hole, will this affect the boat in any way ie. let water into the boat ?
sorry for the possibly stupid questions but this is my first boat and i am on a learning curve here

thanks in advance for the replies ( if there is any lol)

 

[southkogs]

Re: new engine old outdrive no gears

Welcome aboard John:

First guess from your description is that the out drive is that it's an electric shift. Post a photo of it, and maybe that will help get a couple of answers. Unless you happen to know what the drive is.

 

[Bondo]

Re: new engine old outdrive no gears

Hi all
i have just taken possession of a boat that had a big old gas guzzling engine in it but the previous owner did not think to winterize ( a must in the Irish climate !) and as a result destroyed the thing. i have since installed a diesel engine from a truck and marinised it - no problems. however the shift lever wont go back in the reverse position it will go forward but not back, it will also not engage the gears and spins freely when pushed forward.
there is 2 black wires coming from the out-drive that are also not connected to anything and as i did not remove the engine from the boat have no idea where they are supposed to go any ideas ?
i have read the posts on here about dodgy old/ new cables and both of these are the red ones.
my questions are -
what do i have to remove at the out-drive to access the shift mechanism there and check for deposits blocking the shifting
what are the 2 wires for ?
does the prop have to be spinning for the drive to go into gear ?
also the bellows from the transom to the leg have busted and the exhaust smoke is coming out from the hole, will this affect the boat in any way ie. let water into the boat ?
sorry for the possibly stupid questions but this is my first boat and i am on a learning curve here

thanks in advance for the replies ( if there is any lol)

Ayuh,.... Welcome Aboard,.... Who's outdrive ya got,..?? Which outdrive ya got,..?? 'bout what Vintage is it,..??

Got any Pictures,..??

 

[irishjohn123]

Re: new engine old outdrive no gears

cheers all
the boat is at a friends yard so i will try to get pictures and details from it tonight (damm time difference) and post them on here as soon as i can.
look forward to hearing from you all !!

 

[irishjohn123]

Re: new engine old outdrive no gears

just in with the details off the outdrive and its a omc cobra model no- 988105 serial no t00333987 pictures to follow ..............................................

thanks

 

[irishjohn123]

Re: new engine old outdrive no gears




does anyone have any idea what make of boat it is ? nothing marked or stamped on it anywhere ?

 

[Reinell-BRXL-191]

Re: new engine old outdrive no gears

Someone will correct me if I am wrong.. but during my reading on here, I remember this serial number... it came up during the transitional phase where they were going from the cobra to the SX drives... so, it was between the last known cobra number of 986XXX and the 385XXX series - this transition occurred between 1993 and 1994 - and for some reason this drive serial got lost in the mix.. and cannot be looked up.. Was the gas engine a 5.0, 5,7 or 5.8? I am pretty sure the drive is the last of the clutch dog cobras

 

[irishjohn123]

Re: new engine old outdrive no gears

reinell
the engine was removed before i bought the boat but i think it was a 5.0 ? being a clutch dog cobra does it have the magnets to engage forward and reverse gears ? and are these just a 12v supply onto the magnet when the micro switches for the specific gear are selected ?
my thinking is a 12v supply taken from the battery to the switches direct on a normally open circuit with a common neutral at the switches but there is only 2 wires going out to the outdrive, are these just positives energising the magnets ? am i even on the right road here with my thinking ?

thanks

 

[Reinell-BRXL-191]

Re: new engine old outdrive no gears

No magnets

The drive switches gear via a cable that runs from the engine to the outdrive, thru the transom - you move the shifter forward, it pushes 2 cables, one for the gas, one for the shifter.. there is a transfer point normally above the starboard valve cover, where the shifter cable splits in to a push pull system which includes a few switches ( ESA etc) but there should be a red (hopefully) shift cable that came in on the starboard side of the transom mount... (top cable in your number 4 picture) that's what shifts the drive


properly installed unit looks like this ( same as your number 4 picture)

Based on your number 4 picture, the whole mess is out of adjustment, and right now, your ESA is engaged - it should be riding in the middle of the v notch - Plus of course since you changed the engine, I don't know if the current bracket will allow you to bolt this on the the engine to hold it in place. Since it is 105 out and I am too lazy to go out and look, I "think" it bolts to the intake manifold, but don't hold me to that

And since you changed to a diesel, there is nothing to stumble as far as the ESA - because the engine uses detonation and glow plugs to operate. I don't know if your current engine is going to be able to work with a clutch dog stern drive.. because in order to allow the clutch dogs to pull apart, the engine needs to almost be dying, and this is done by the ESA stumbling a distributor and killing spark to the spark plugs... scratching my head... hmmmmm Did you use a GM diesel? What Liter? What are you using for exhaust manifolds and risers?

You can go here and read the documents that explain how this cable works and how it is adjusted

http://www.midnight-wolf.com/OMC_Install_Instructions.html

Oh, and BTW, the 2 wires go to the trim sender on the drive - and the upper drive shaft bellows has to be water tight.. or you could sink her

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: new engine old outdrive no gears

i have just taken possession of a boat that had a big old gas guzzling engine in it but the previous owner did not think to winterize ( a must in the Irish climate !) and as a result destroyed the thing. i have since installed a diesel engine from a truck and marinised it - no problems.

Howdy,


I don't envy you on the problems you are going to have getting this thing to work. You will have a VERY hard time getting some sort of torque interruption system to work with a diesel engine.

The original Electronic Sthift Assist system common to ALL Dog-clutch Cobras had an electronic system to "pulse" the ignition to make the engine "lope" so you could get it out of gear.

There's really no good way to "pulse" a diesel except to interrupt the fuel shut-off solenoid (if there is one) And it will probably just kill it if you do it at idle. If you increase the idle RPM to keep it from dying when you "pulse" the fuel shut-off, you'll probably "toast" the clutch dogs trying to get it into gear.......

You will have a HEII of a time getting that thing out of gear unless you shut it off every time you want to shift to neutral!

AND if you force it out of gear, you'll be replacing lower shift cables frequently (if you don't destroy the drive in the process)

Sorry about that. The Cobra is just really not well suited to coupling up with a diesel. I think OMC did do it, so if you can get your hands on what they used to interrupt torque for shifting, you might make it work. I'll bet those parts should as easy to find as 460 exhaust manifolds.......:facepalm:

My suggestion is that if you MUST use that engine, get a Volvo Penta Duo-prop drive with the proper gimbal and flywheel housing/coupler to match it (if one exists)


Good luck......


Rick

 

[irishjohn123]

Re: new engine old outdrive no gears

hummm thats a lot to take on board at this point after just having put in the engine ( its a ford 2.5l small by american standards!)
will have to spend the weekend messing around with it to see if i can make it work or not.
thanks for the replies and if you can think of anything else let me know.
reinell you ever been to the Irish Cultural Center in pheonix ? if you ever do say hi to pat mc crossan in there for me he is the director and my uncle !! small world.

thanks guys

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: new engine old outdrive no gears

hummm thats a lot to take on board at this point after just having put in the engine ( its a ford 2.5l small by american standards!)
will have to spend the weekend messing around with it to see if i can make it work or not.
thanks for the replies and if you can think of anything else let me know.
reinell you ever been to the Irish Cultural Center in pheonix ? if you ever do say hi to pat mc crossan in there for me he is the director and my uncle !! small world.

thanks guys

John,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news. If that engine you're using is only a 2.5L diesel, even if it's turbocharged, it's going to be very underpowered for a boat that size. It appears to be 20 or so feet long. A 2.5L diesel might be someplace on the order of 120hp if that.

Do you have a picture of the engine that was freeze damaged?

Most of us can tell at a glance what it was and If your engine cannot produce enough power with the current drive ratio, the boat may not even get up on a plane.

 

[Reinell-BRXL-191]

Re: new engine old outdrive no gears

Based on the serial number he gave for the drive, the outdrive is designed for a 5.0 or larger V8 - the 2.5 diesel is not going to be able to get the boat up on plane even if he could get around the ESA mess he is going to face with the diesel.. that's why I asked him the liter size.. I was hoping he came back with it being a 5.7 diesel...

still scratching my head over how he got the 2.5 in there, and how he hooked up the exhaust - I will give him credit so far.. but the ESA problem will most likely change how he goes forward with this engine...

research shows OMC did have a 3.2 diesel (32DAPEJV) that was actually used in the same year I think you boat is.. it was mainly used in larger boats in multi-engine configurations.. these were of course turbocharged and intercooled - and made 200 horses - these were used with the 986975 sterndrive.. which is the exact same as the 5.8 liter version.. hmmmm??? But based on the parts list needed for this engine ( heat exchangers, governor assemblies, turbo etc etc..) no way you would find one and all the parts to get it to hook up to your current outdrive..

I know petrol is high there, but you may just want to look for an original type engine, or a different boat/drive system

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: new engine old outdrive no gears

OMC did have a 3.2 diesel (32DAPEJV) that was actually used in the same year I think you boat is.. it was mainly used in larger boats in multi-engine configurations.. these were of course turbocharged and intercooled - and made 200 horses - these were used with the 986975 sterndrive.. which is the exact same as the 5.8 liter version.. hmmmm???

Yeah. Looking at http://epc.brp.com/ It was the 1992/1993 model years using the OMC "interim" Cone clutch drive and drive mounted impeller.


It would work because there was no ESA needed......... they did use some sort of "shift -interruption" though. Unless you have something internal to the injection pump that will briefly interrupt fuel flow, you would have to drop the power to the fuel shut-off valve on pump etc. And looking at the BRP parts breakout, it appears to have unit injectors.

I will give him credit so far.. but the ESA problem will most likely change how he goes forward with this engine...

It probably wouldn't be as important on a cone clutch drive since they don't require anywhere near the interruption in torque (if any at all) that a dog-clutch needs to get them apart.....It's not going to work with a dog-clutch very long (it at all)

Anyone even know what engine this was? 6 cyl turbocharged, intercooled diesel with unit injector system and overhead cam!

This is turning into a thread hijack.......sorry about that.......

 

[irishjohn123]

Re: new engine old outdrive no gears

guys
thanks for the replies
the 2.5 may be under powered at a standard 125bhp but the fuel pump can be turned up to increase output although at this stage im not sure what the output will be. the torque off these engines are a lot bigger than you would think, that coupled with the increased bhp should give a fairly good overall output (we think).
we got the engine in place by adjusting the mountings and some clever welding and frame building as well as some magic with the drive coupling and the fly wheel.
It was hooked up to the exhaust by cleverly re designing the manifold and coupling this to the exhaust on the out drive and combining the raw water intake through a heat exchanger and effectively making our own wet exhaust system, not as hard as it sounds.
As for having to shut off the engine every time i wanted to put it into neutral , would that really be so bad ? i mean its only going to be used as a summer run around ( we dont get more than a 12 week window for comfortable boating here) as its diesel there is no problems with flooding and the likes and the idle speeds can be brought down to a very low rpm.
There is a fuel solenoid that i have wired in to my engine cut off switch , its designed as - key ignition activates fuel solenoid then push button engages starter and engine starts, key in other position cuts off fuel supply stopping the engine, this could be changed to incorporate a push button in the normally closed position that when pressed interrupts the power to the solenoid and cuts the engine for as long as its pressed but is it really necessary ? i mean is it a great inconvenience to stop the engine when going into neutral anyway ?
this is a project where myself and my brother in law can have some fun trying to make a boat bought for very little money(600 bucks) sea worthy.

the original engine has been sold for its scrap value by the previous owner and i have no way of getting any pics or further info on it sorry.

thanks for all the info and if anyone can give me any more info on the gears and selection i would be grateful, ie does the low idle speed allow the clutch to slip and then the cable drives the selector in place ?
forums like this are excellent in allowing novices like me in a little island half way across the world talk to experts on boats and engines, cheers guys

 

[Howard Sterndrive]

Re: new engine old outdrive no gears

OMC did put a 200HP (Steyr) diesel in front of the Cobra (cone clutch) for a couple of years. There was no shift interrupt on it.

neat project!

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: new engine old outdrive no gears

thanks for all the info and if anyone can give me any more info on the gears and selection i would be grateful, ie does the low idle speed allow the clutch to slip and then the cable drives the selector in place ?

Well, you need to read up a little on how an OMC Dog-clutch works. The following will give you some info...

http://www.hastings.org/~stuart/cobra/

If you have the engine idling at around 500-600 RPM, you'll have no problems getting it into either Forward or Reverse gear normally.

Idling at very much higher RPM will not only make harder going into gear but WILL eventually damage the clutch dogs. (it's not an "IF", it's a "when")

Getting it out of gear will be difficult unless you can find a way to momentarily interrupt the engine torque whilst applying "out-of-gear" force to the shifter. Because of the clutch dog "undercut", it's the torque that holds them together in either FWD or REV.

OMC designed an ignition pulsing system using potted electronics to facilitate it. Mercruiser used a simple make/break switch. I have to assume that OMC tried to use a simple switch too with NO (or limited) success..............because they didn't use it in their final design but rather, used some somewhat extensive electronics potted in a "module" called an ESA *Electronic Shift Assist) System.

If you can come up with a decent momentary fuel shut-off "interrupt" without killing the engine every time you try to come out of gear, it just might work. If it doesn't and you have to apply inordinate force to get it out of gear, You spend most of your time replacing lower shift cables instead of boating.....


I cannot speak to gear ratio selection for your drive since I have no idea what that engine is capable of. The engine that OMC used in their diesel application was a 6cyl engine. If you want to know what the final ratio the OMC diesel used you'd need an owners or service manual that covered that model..........But since your engine is not identical to the engine OMC used, you'll have to experiment with gear ratios, props or both. Good luck on that.....

People have tried putting diesels in boats that were never intended to go in boats. Unless you have a LOT of money, it usually doesn't turn out well.

I am impressed that you were able to get the exhaust system and rear mounting issued solved (post some pictures!!! We LOVE pictures!!!)


Good luck! (With the utmost respect, Most of think you'll need a LOT here!)


Rick

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: new engine old outdrive no gears

OMC did put a 200HP (Steyr) diesel in front of the Cobra (cone clutch) for a couple of years. There was no shift interrupt on it.

neat project!

There was some sort of shift "interrupt" used with the interim OMC cones.....

From BRP Parts :

32DAPEJVB 1993

0914481 ROLLER, Cam, shift interrupter
0914482 SCREW, Shift interrupter cam
0986368 SWITCH, Shift

I don't think the newer Volvo SX and other Cone clutch drives need any sort of Interrupt .

The Mercruiser Bravos do not use an interrupt.