Need Some Opinions

Reel Poor

Vice Admiral
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Jan 29, 2005
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I need some honest and accurate opinions on your thoughts as to what may have happened to this lower gearcase.

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jebeebe

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 26, 2006
Messages
322
Re: Need Some Opinions

looks like a hand grenade went off in it. Did somthing get between the gears?
 

JUSTINTIME

Captain
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Sep 2, 2006
Messages
3,284
Re: Need Some Opinions

lets see
bass boat
very fast
tree stump?
or hydro gave out while towing
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
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45,907
Re: Need Some Opinions

Think the skeg hit something very hard and took it out.

Maybe while in tow at high speed, but the transom saver suggests it happened on the water at high speed.
 

OldMercsRule

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Nov 30, 2006
Messages
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Re: Need Some Opinions

Looks like an external hit at a fair amount of speed, or the gears themselves would show some stress. Rock, stump, or something in the road while towing the rig down the road. JR
 

OldMercsRule

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Re: Need Some Opinions

If it was in the water when it happened, I bet the prop was stainless.
 

Reel Poor

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Re: Need Some Opinions

The boat was in the water coasting along about 60-65 mph when the damage occured. This happened in deep water so the rest of the parts are not retrieveable. There is NO nose cone damage. The paint is not even scratched. The gears that are left still turn freely. No gear damage.

Has anyone ever seen gearcase damage like this from a frontal impact. I haven't.....

This section of damage has me second guessing the failure. This damage is consistant to improper prop installation. Does anyone feel as the wrong/improper prop installation could have caused this problem? I wonder if a piece of the geargase, as it was being shredded of by the prop, may have lodged between the prop and the gearcase and burst the housing.

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WillyBWright

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Re: Need Some Opinions

OOPS! Somebody forgot the thrust washer. At first I thought this was clearly impact damage. But the way the breakage on the right side exceeds that of the left side indicates that it was a radial shockwave and not a longitudinal one.

The prop was clearly boring its way into the housing and possibly reached a point where it cocked in the bore and broke the housing. The prop would've bored a fairly centered pattern at first which kept the prop running fairly true. Until the housing got so thin that it could no longer keep the prop contained. Lack of a thrust washer allowed the prop to twist sideways by several degrees and that's what took out the gear housing. Lack of gearhousing caused the guts to puke out the back.

Whoever installed the prop has a lot of explaining to do.

But it may not be as cut-and-dried as this may seem. It is posible that the hub of the prop failed. Not the cushion, but the prop material itself where the hub installs. That could happen from a strike. If it split, then the thrust washer would be only so effective. Do I think that happened? Probably not. But I can't eliminate the possibility without seeing the prop.

I would fully expect that a prop blade would hit the underside of the antiventlation plate in either case. That would leave an obvious scar and I don't see that angle in any of your pics. If that happened, the prop would act like a lever and break out the housing. If that isn't there, I'd have to go back to my original theory of a strike at high speed with the prop-boring being coincidental and not causal.

Or perhaps the prop hit the torque tab instead of the AV plate. I see that it's missing. The bolt that retained it should still be there. If it's sheared, or if the threaded portion of the tab is still there, that would back-up the thrust washer/split hub theory. But lack of a tab without damage to the bolt would indicate that it merely fell out and that could cause the damage with the prop-boring being coincidental. Those things do loosen up and fall off sometimes.

Yet another possibility is that you hit a substantial stick or chunk of lumber that wedged between the antiventilation plate and prop blade and that caused the damage, or caused the prop-without-thrust-washer to **** and that caused the damage.

I see that you have hydraulidc steering, so you may not necessarily have had a torque tab in the first place. You should still have the flat plate that would replace it for anodic purposes, but...

Get a shot of the area immediately above the prop including the area where the torque tab fits. That should answer some questions.

No matter what, the prop installer owes you a housing (unless it could be proved that the prop hub split which I've never seen and would think highly unlikely). That damage is clear and unrepairable. The question is the guts and prop. Also look for other damage that may confirm or eliminate a strike to the skeg including the clamp brackets and midsection where the tilt tube passes, transom damage, trim/tilt unit damage including it's attaching points, and the side bolts on the jackplate. Any body of water with trees has the potential to have submerged trees or limbs semi-floating inches to feet below the surface.
 

WillyBWright

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Re: Need Some Opinions

Some more questions.

What prop did you have on it?
Was it trailered, or kept on a lift?
Did you notice any loss of top-end prior to the failure?
Who installed the prop last? (I don't need a name)

Another observation. The wear pattern on what is left is flat. Had it been boring in like a wedge, that could split things apart. But the flat wear pattern would lead me away from that theory. The props with pressed rubber hubs would probably not **** far enough to cause that damage. The ones with plastic inserts could, especially if the prop has a large diameter.

If that facility is a Merc dealership, you might request that a Tech Rep stop by and render his opinion. They represent the factory and not the dealer. You'd probably get an accurate and honest opinion.
 

Reel Poor

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Re: Need Some Opinions

WillyBWright said:
Some more questions.

What prop did you have on it?
Was it trailered, or kept on a lift?
Did you notice any loss of top-end prior to the failure?
Who installed the prop last? (I don't need a name)

Thanks for the insight WBW. It's not my motor. I was asked by a friend to give my opinion on what happened. I was really looking for some more input.


{quote]What prop did you have on it?[/quote]

It had an aftermarket stainless prop

Was it trailered, or kept on a lift?

It is a trailered boat

Did you notice any loss of top-end prior to the failure?

Don't have that information

Who installed the prop last?

Owner installed. Don't know when or for how long it had been on.

There is no other coincidental damage to the transom, jackplate, or pivot shaft. I have seen a lot of inpact damaged gearcases but nothing this catastrophic, especially with no other signs of damage. I'm not saying it can't happen but.........My opinion is that there was some type of mechanical failure, be it prop bushing, hub, or other. I do not believe this was caused by inpact damage. There was obviously some type of problem with clearance at the prop and gearcase. There is a lot of the gearcase missing, approximately 1/4 inch PLUS. Notice its worn down all the way to/into the threaded area of the gearcase.

Again thanks, as this is really just a couriosity question.





 

DHPMARINE

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Dec 16, 2003
Messages
3,688
Re: Need Some Opinions

Well,why the heck don't I just jump in with both feet (I usually do)
Seldom do we see lower units trashed like this.Actually this is prbably # 4 that I've seen.

I cannot imagine improper propeller installation has a thing to do with it.If the spacer was left out and the gearcase got damaged .......... No It just doesn't play right.If the nut wasn't tight or locked on ....same thing.

Any problems would come up at cruising speeds.

To do that damage,somebody hit something !

hard to say because I respect all you guys,but I had to

DHP
 

Reel Poor

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Re: Need Some Opinions

DHP your input is more than welcomed, and thanks for jumpin in.
 

WillyBWright

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Re: Need Some Opinions

I'd agree. He hit something. Judging by what's missing and the breakage pattern, I'd say that the most likely scenario is that it was a limb or piece of lumber floating a foot or two below the surface, fairly parallel to the boat's path. The obstruction passed immediately on the right side of the skeg just below the bullet. It wedged between the prop and the skeg, and the gearcase basically twisted apart. Insurance should cover it.

The prop damage to the gearcase is coincidental. But it does offer some lessons. Don't forget the thrust washer, and aftermarket props may need different hardware than original equipment props. A thrust washer may have been there, but just wasn't the right one for the prop. Considering that it was trailered and he used a transom saver, he should've noticed that something was wrong with how the prop fit on the gearcase. Just like checking the tires before a trip, you should check the prop before launching.
 

Silvertip

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Re: Need Some Opinions

I'm still on my first cup of jo this morning but here's my theory -- and I agree it was a strike. However two things happened. First, the skeg and/or prop hit something. At 60 - 65 MPH and a prop speed of about 3000 RPM or more it wouldn't take much of a hit to "crack" the housing. Consider the damage done by "touching" a rock at trolling speeds for example. The minimum is a bent blade or two but can also include a bent prop shaft and broken gears. 225 HP puts a fair amount of stress on a good housing so that power adds stress to the now cracked housing. Prop rotation is clockwise so a prop strike causes a shock load that pushes the prop shaft hard to the left (the housing is stationary in relation to the now moving prop shaft and bang -- the right side of the gear case goes away along with other weakend pieces. The prop/housing interference circled in Real Poor's picture is a result of the initial strike. At 3000 prop RPM the stainless hub would eat into the aluminum housing like a knife through butter with even minor contact. I suspect this event happened in a heartbeat so even the owner cannot probably relate what actually happened. While I have not seen damage like this before, the damage I've seen is primarily from stiking submerged objects like wing dams on the Mississippi River. In those cases the joint between the lower unit and mid section suffers the damage. I admit also that the engines I've seen have not been high-HP models. In this case, I would bet microscopic inspection of the drive shaft splines would show a bit of distortion as they tried to absorb the impact. An interview with the owner would be interesting.
 

Silvertip

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Re: Need Some Opinions

I suppose one could also say the carrier broke causing an alignment problem and the parts were simply bound up and spit out the right side of the housing. I'm done.
 

Silvertip

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Re: Need Some Opinions

Can't help myself and I keep coming back to those pictures. Looking at the straight on shot of the gear, closer inspection shows damage to the dogs at 12, 2, 4, and 6 o-clock that probably is not normal wear as the other two dogs look ok. Would it be possible something in the shift mechanism came apart and bound things up. We don't have the rest of the internals so we'll never know.
 

TriadSteeler

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Messages
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Re: Need Some Opinions

This would be my best guess.
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That is just simply unbelievable.
 

Texasmark

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Re: Need Some Opinions

If a trailering problem, I think you would just grind your way up from the bottom; skeg and prop together; prop in either 3 or 4 blades would just sit there and grind away.

The only way this could happen if trailering caused, would be for there to be a bump; a very big, hard, bump, like the trailer hit a really big chuckhole on a really hard road, (concrete); but it would not explain the wearing away of the rear of the gearcase where the threads are......the prop had to be turning and turning a lot to do that and that aint-a-gonna-happen trailering. So forget that.
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At 65 mph a tree top might seem like a concrete bridge railing. Even in deep water, tree tops exist; but to do this? Naw! Would have to be a concrete bridge/bridge railing which do exist when they flood lakes and don't take out old bridges. Lake Ray Hubbard in Dallas is a perfect example. BTDT

The fact that the front of the gearbox is intact suggests to me the skeg hit something below the gearbox frontal area.

I think if this were throwing parts (internal to the gearbox), it would blow out the side of the housing as a hole. The fact that the visable gears are clean tells me that it wasn't foreign object damage in the geartrain. Besides there aren't any parts in that area other than maybe the pin that holds the shift dog to the propshaft; that has a big spring around it to keep it in place and this is a new engine. So I doubt that to be the problem either.
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The housing broke from underneath and the break started up just behind the reinforced nosecone. If you blew out from the rear, the tears wouldn't be where they are.......which rules out the last thing I am going to say and that is that the thrust washer wasn't installed.The stress of the impact literally pulled the aluminum molecules apart like happens (you can observe) when you take aluminum and bend it back and forth a few times the way it just breaks apart.

The stress of the strike was pushing against the skeg and if you'll notice both sides of the gearhousing started splitting symmetrically upwards. Just so happens that the starboard side was slightly weaker and yielded first, or the boat was in a turn, giving the shape of the housing break.
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Some things that don't make sense.

The prop was probably the standard right hand rotation like the prop on the other boat in the first picture.

That says that the force from it would be to port and down. The marks on the rear of the housing immediately behind the threads indicate that type of force.

So I'd expect the port side of the housing to be blown out, not the starboard.

The other thing is how'd the prop get to the housing to score it up in the first place? The front of the propshaft sticks into the rear of F gear which is still intact. The propshaft movement is maybe .100 inch fore-aft, max. normally.

For the prop to hit the left side the shaft would have to move to the left as would R gear and the gimbal bearing supporting it. That would breakout the port side of the housing which is cracked, but still intact; unlike the right side which is blown away.

If, in fact the thrust washer were not installed, the prop could gnaw it's way up the propshaft eating away at the casting but making one terrible noise that might or might not go unnoticed. I'd think this would be obvious, along with a significant power reduction, vibration of the engine, when the boat first punched out upon leaving the ramp. Maybe even idling thru the "no wake zone" would have given indications that something's amiss and start an investigation (by the operator) as to why.

But that could have happened and as the rear of the gearbox was being removed, the prop shaft was able to start wobbling which would account for the expansion (pushed out) part of the port side.

Then either it was just a matter of one side beating the other in falling off, or something as simple as the engine being turned to the right, in a right turn to generate enough impalance of the pressure on the propshaft for it to be able to come out of the forward gear and the whole thing blow away.
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So for a forward strike I would look for gouge marks under the nose of the gearbox where the skeg is attached; may or may not be any evidence depending upon how low the strike was. I have hit objects (concrete) on the skeg and the skeg would just shear away but never had one hit near the top where the skeg interfaces with the gearhousing. Up there, especially at 60 mph where things happen fast, the skeg might not have time to shear before the impact stress was transferred to the housing.

For a missing thrust washer, a real long shot as the operator should have suspected something before you got to this kind of damage, I'd look for gouges around the hole in the F gear where the nose of the propshaft mounts caused by the prop shaft ripping out the side of the gearhousing. (The teeth are hardened but I don't think the whole gear is treated, just the teeth.)

But if this were the case, especially since the prop is pushing on the propshaft because the splines are still there and one would suppose the hub were still intact to the prop, you'd think the F gear would have been ripped out also; i.e. the housing would be broken there too.

Really good material for a good "Mickey Spillane Mystery Novel.

I know where this is headed. Insurance claim, or warranty repair. :love:
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Well, after looking, reading, and writing for an hour, I'm going for a frontal strike of a solid object while at high speed in the water.
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Wish you luck.

Mark
 
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