Need Help with Brakes

[Wide Open]

I am new to boating and this is my first experience with surge brakes. I bought a 20' deckboat that is listed at 3000 pounds dry and I estimate the trailer probably weighs about 1000. My tow vehicle is a regular cab Silverado 4X4 3.73 gears. It tows fine except for the braking felt awfully weak and stopping and starting is very jerky. I thought it was probably just the difference between electric brakes and surge brakes. After reading several posts regarding surge brakes I realized that my brakes urgently needed to be adjusted.
I went to adjust the brakes this evening and found that even with the plunger at full compression the wheels spin freely. My trailer only has brakes on the front axle which according to Champion Trailers also appears to be less than optimum.
Due to the weight of the boat and trailer I want to add brakes to the second rear axle. The second axle has the 4-bolt hole mounting flange.
The axle with brakes will likely need to be completely replaced because they do not engage no matter the adjustment and there is bearing grease spun throughout the drum and backing plate. Now the part I need help with – (please provide fact and opinion where appropriate)
How do I know if the existing master cylinder will support a second set of brakes? The hitch ball pocket pivots back and up rather than the entire coupler sliding fore and aft.
Is it cheaper/better to simply replace the entire axle than buy a complete set of brakes?
Is there a significant advantage to disc brakes over drums in my application?
If I switch to disc brakes will I also need to change my master cylinder?
Is there a reason to stay with surge brakes or should I switch to electric brakes?

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Need Help with Brakes

How do I know if the existing master cylinder will support a second set of brakes?

More than likely it will. Have not heard of any that don't.

Is it cheaper/better to simply replace the entire axle than buy a complete set of brakes?

You don't have to replace the whole axle. You can buy a complete drum brake set that will bolt onto the the brake flange.

Is there a significant advantage to disc brakes over drums in my application?

I have switched to disc brakes because I believe there will be less maintenance issues.

Is there a reason to stay with surge brakes or should I switch to electric brakes?

Personally, I wouldn't use electric brakes in a marine environment.

If I switch to disc brakes will I also need to change my master cylinder?

The only difference between a master cylinder for drums and discs is a small valve in the drum type that holds a small amount of pressure in the lines. To convert it to disc use you will have to rupture this valve.

Not sure of the age of your brake system but more often than not, the wheel cylinders are the first things that fail. You can probably get your brakes working by changing them out and possibly the master cylinder if it also needs replacing. It also sounds like the grease seals need to be replaced along with going over the bearings to see what shape they are in.

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: Need Help with Brakes

i strongly suggest disc as they tend to not have the rust problem you get with drums. call champion, they are one of the greatest companies to work with, and they will not lead you wrong, and won't sell you something you don't need. i have used them for many things, and 100% satisfied.

 

[Wide Open]

Re: Need Help with Brakes

The only difference between a master cylinder for drums and discs is a small valve in the drum type that holds a small amount of pressure in the lines. To convert it to disc use you will have to rupture this valve.

Thanks for the response. Are you saying the master cylinder itself needs to be modified? Is the valve you refer to removable?

 

[Wide Open]

Re: Need Help with Brakes

i strongly suggest disc as they tend to not have the rust problem you get with drums. call champion, they are one of the greatest companies to work with, and they will not lead you wrong, and won't sell you something you don't need. i have used them for many things, and 100% satisfied.

Thanks. I downloaded their catalog last night. Now I am just trying to figure out what I need to get my brakes working.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Need Help with Brakes

Thanks for the response. Are you saying the master cylinder itself needs to be modified? Is the valve you refer to removable?

There is a section on the champion trailers site that discusses how to do it.

 

[fishingdan]

Re: Need Help with Brakes

Disc brakes are superior to drum brakes on a boat/trailer that size. Also a lot less maintenance.

 

[Wide Open]

Re: Need Help with Brakes

After further inspection I discovered that the master cylinder was seized in addition to the problems listed above. I ordered a new master cylinder and associated components as well as the Kodiac front and rear axle disc conversion kits from Champion. The brakes shouldn't be weak after this upgrade.

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: Need Help with Brakes

great move. let us know how the installation goes.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Need Help with Brakes

You will love the Kodiaks. They are what I just put on my trailer.

 

[Wide Open]

Re: Need Help with Brakes

Got my brakes yesterday but the brass tee fittings for the lines didn’t arrive with the rest of the items.
I have to say that despite the quality of the components in the kit the instructions are very poor. I say this because they don’t have much detail but what is describes conflicts with the instructions Champion has listed on their website. I am installing the right side calipers mounted at the 9 o’clock position and the left side at the 3 o’clock position. Online instructions state to mount them in the 12 o'clock.
I will be reusing my dust caps because the ones included in the kit are for spindles that have the grease fitting screwed directly into the end of the spindle. My spindles have the grease fitting in the cap not the spindle.
Finally, I need to replace two bearing washers and spindle nuts due to wear but they are not included with the kit. I will probably start working on them tomorrow and hope I can find a couple of washers and nuts locally.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Need Help with Brakes

I am not sure that the orientation of the calipers is that critical.

The nuts can't be included with the kit because various axles use different threads.

 

[Wide Open]

Re: Need Help with Brakes

I am not sure that the orientation of the calipers is that critical.

The nuts can't be included with the kit because various axles use different threads.

Yeah I don't know why it would matter but the two instruction sheets indicate different placement.
I understand why they aren't included, I just wish I knew they weren't at the time of purchase since I need two replacements. Not a big deal if I can find them locally. If not, it only means that I won't get the brakes finished until late in the week.

 

[Wide Open]

Re: Need Help with Brakes

Still having brake issues!!!!
Anyone have any experience with the Atwood master cylinder?
I ordered a new disc brake master cylinder when I ordered the brake kits. I have bleed the brakes but I still do not have any braking power. I put the trailer back up on jack stands and found that even with the master cylinder fully depressed there is zero braking action. The calipers barely move and I can still turn the rotors with just my hands. The brake actuator will slowly go through the entire range of motion. There are no fluid leaks.
Is this normal? A car brake pedal won't sink all the way to the floor but that is basically what is happening. I tried bleeding the brakes again in a different order but I am not seeing any air in the lines. I am about to sink the trailer to the bottom of the lake.
Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Wide Open]

Re: Need Help with Brakes

Nevermind, got it figured out. It seems the Atwood master cylinder requires its own bleeding ritual BEFORE moving on to bleed each caliper. Once I had the master cylinder bled the brakes worked great.
The coupler stills goes all the way to the fully collasped postion but according to Champion the pushrod goes part of the distance and the remainder of the travel is the overload spring.

 

[rndn]

Re: Need Help with Brakes

Please let up know after a few outings of your opinion with the new brake setup.

 

[Wide Open]

Re: Need Help with Brakes

Sure thing. I took it around the block (I live in the country so it was about 5 miles of two lane moderately hilly roads) and I was very impressed with the brakes. The are very progressive and smooth. Much better modulation than the electric brakes on my car trailer.
I probably won't get the boat out again for the next few weeks because I am starting an engine swap in my truck. Once I get out to the lake I will post my over the road impressions.