Need an explanation of rpm behavior

Chris_94_Sprint_TX

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jun 1, 2013
Messages
226
My background is all Automotive. I don't quite understand how increasing pitch would cause the motor to drop rpms. To my understanding, a motor is going say 6,000 rpm with say a 19p prop. The motor is going to rev 6,000 rpm all the time its not going to know that the prop pitch changed. So how does the change in pitch result in a change in rpm?

Chris
 

The Rooster

Ensign
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Messages
936
Re: Need an explanation of rpm behavior

Increasing the prop pitch to say a 21" increases the load on the motor and would drop the max. rpm's 200-400. But, you could pick up some additional speed. Unlike cars, boats are basically direct drive. Without transmissons and multiple gears to multiply the force being generated, as you increase the load, the rpm's drop. Your Dodge Hemi might hit 7000 rpm in overdrive, but not with your SeaRay hooked up to the back. Somebody will have a better analogy for you shortly, I'm sure. Good luck !!!
 
Last edited:

tpenfield

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 18, 2011
Messages
18,038
Re: Need an explanation of rpm behavior

My background is all Automotive. I don't quite understand how increasing pitch would cause the motor to drop rpms. To my understanding, a motor is going say 6,000 rpm with say a 19p prop. The motor is going to rev 6,000 rpm all the time its not going to know that the prop pitch changed. So how does the change in pitch result in a change in rpm?

Chris

The motor knows . . . since it attached to the propeller. Kind of like changing gear ratios in a car.
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
70,939
Re: Need an explanation of rpm behavior

My background is all Automotive. I don't quite understand how increasing pitch would cause the motor to drop rpms. To my understanding, a motor is going say 6,000 rpm with say a 19p prop. The motor is going to rev 6,000 rpm all the time its not going to know that the prop pitch changed. So how does the change in pitch result in a change in rpm?

Chris

Ayuh,.... Does yer car motor rev to the same point in 1st gear, vs: overdrive,..??

A motor reacts to the Load put on it,...
 

limitout

Banned
Joined
Oct 1, 2013
Messages
543
Re: Need an explanation of rpm behavior

the prop acts like your rear end gear ratio and when you make a change it changes the load on the engine so a larger pitch is like putting a different set of gears in your rear end

in terms of motorcycles its like changing the number of teeth on the sprockets so the rpms and your speed changes every time you add or reduce the number of teeth on that sprocket

the rpms will change because you are changing the load on the engine, sort of like going up hill or down hill, your rpms will change because the load changed
 
Last edited:

Maclin

Admiral
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
6,761
Re: Need an explanation of rpm behavior

Many 6speed manual shift cars hit top speed in 5th not 6th, too much load, like riding an 18 speed bike in 18th uphill. If you change the rear diff gears from 3.5 to 2.5 for example the car will likely not gain any top speed and struggle to hit top RPM's. The pitch of the prop is the final governer over what the engine sees regarding load. Higher pitch will almost always drop the top RPM's attainable unless the engine was crazy over-revving in the first place.
 

Chris_94_Sprint_TX

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jun 1, 2013
Messages
226
Re: Need an explanation of rpm behavior

That all makes sense. What brought up the topic with my friend was, we changed the prop on my boat from 19p to 21p and upon the test trip. It still revs the same and only seemed to pick up a 1 or 3 mph. Top speed was 35-36mph at 4600rpm Before was 33-35mph and I did install a hydrofoil (SE Sport 300). Reading was speedo gauge on my boat plus speedo gauge on my friend's brand new Supra.

Chris
 

smokeonthewater

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
9,838
Re: Need an explanation of rpm behavior

there are more things about props than pitch that can affect rpm.... such as cupping, diameter, blade shape, etc
 

Chris_94_Sprint_TX

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jun 1, 2013
Messages
226
Re: Need an explanation of rpm behavior

OK let me run this by y'all. The prop I changed from was 14.5" diameter and 19p to a 14" diameter and 21p. How much could or would this change things? I don't know about the cup but I can try to get some pictures tomorrow.

Chris
 

The Rooster

Ensign
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Messages
936
Re: Need an explanation of rpm behavior

OK let me run this by y'all. The prop I changed from was 14.5" diameter and 19p to a 14" diameter and 21p. How much could or would this change things? I don't know about the cup but I can try to get some pictures tomorrow.

Chris

Chris, per your previous post, you are running right in the sweet spot on your rpm's for a 3.0 liter merc. at 4600. What exactly are you looking to gain? Top speed, hole shot, bow lift ?
 
Last edited:

tpenfield

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 18, 2011
Messages
18,038
Re: Need an explanation of rpm behavior

OK let me run this by y'all. The prop I changed from was 14.5" diameter and 19p to a 14" diameter and 21p. How much could or would this change things? I don't know about the cup but I can try to get some pictures tomorrow.

Chris

Not an exact science, but the reduced diameter will reduce the load on the engine (so increasing RPM) and the increased pitch will increase the load on the engine (so reducing the RPM). Will it be a wash ? . . . hard to say. I think the pitch will be the stronger factor, since it is increasing by 10%. (21/19), and the effective 'area' of the prop is reduced by about 8%.

If your boat is properly 'propped' right now, then it will probably reach about the same speed (+/-), but at a slightly lower RPM. (hole shot will be worse due to the higher pitch . . . like starting a car off in 2nd gear.)
 
Last edited:

steelespike

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 26, 2002
Messages
19,069
Re: Need an explanation of rpm behavior

A 21" prop should behave like a 21" prop. If you note prop sizes; as pitch goes up generally diameter goes down.
And of course as pitch goes down diameter generally goes up. As was suggested above these things aren't carved in stone.
I looked up a 21" prop the other day just to note the diameters. All were 13" or above but one that was 12 3/4"
Your as likely to note a difference in performance with a different brand as much as a diameter difference
assuming the same pitch,number of blades and design features.
 

Silvertip

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 22, 2003
Messages
28,771
Re: Need an explanation of rpm behavior

Another way to look at this is if all 14-inch diameter, 21P props from every manufacturer performed the same there would be only one manufacturer. Fact is, every prop manufacturer tweaks design characteristics to bias the performance toward speed, hole shot, or simply a compromise between the two. Remember, there will always be folks who want the absolute utmost performance (whatever that means to them) so they will spend a ton of money testing props to find what they want. Relating all of this to cars, putting a new set of tires on your passenger car can alter its fuel economy and hence it's performance (for better or worse). Props work the same way. When it comes to prop selection, you install a prop that puts the wide open throttle engine rpm at or very near the top of the engine manufacturers rpm band with what you consider an average load. Too much pitch lugs the engine and hurts performance. Too little pitch causes over reving but you may have terrific hole shot. Happiness is somewhere in between. Top end speed with be whatever that prop provides.
 

CharlieB

Vice Admiral
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Messages
5,617
Re: Need an explanation of rpm behavior

Prop material can also have an effect on performance.

SS props do not 'flex' as much as aluminum props, maintaining pitch at full load, often finding just a couple more MPH than the same alum prop.
 

Bronlonius

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 21, 2012
Messages
145
Re: Need an explanation of rpm behavior

That all makes sense. What brought up the topic with my friend was, we changed the prop on my boat from 19p to 21p and upon the test trip. It still revs the same and only seemed to pick up a 1 or 3 mph. Top speed was 35-36mph at 4600rpm Before was 33-35mph and I did install a hydrofoil (SE Sport 300). Reading was speedo gauge on my boat plus speedo gauge on my friend's brand new Supra.

Chris

You added the hydrofoil at the same time you changed props? The hydrofoil will add some drag, and as such, it will reduce rpms.
 

Chris_94_Sprint_TX

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jun 1, 2013
Messages
226
Re: Need an explanation of rpm behavior

I'd like a few more MPH but a decent hole shot too. Which with the hydrofoil it has a good hole shot but the speed barely picked up. I don't know if that's because of the hydrofoil or not though. The original prop that was on there was a 19p and chewed all up (there are pictures in my other prop thread). As far as performance I am not trying to set records or anything I'd just like to be around the 40mph mark. The rpms appear to have not changed at all, I went larger in the pitch to drop the rpm and get a little more speed. I may try a 23 p at some point and see what happens but I don't want to go smaller in diameter in fact I'd like to be back around 14.5 inches.

Chris
 

smokeonthewater

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
9,838
Re: Need an explanation of rpm behavior

you are propped about perfect... you don't likely have the HP to reach your goal
 

Chris_94_Sprint_TX

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jun 1, 2013
Messages
226
Re: Need an explanation of rpm behavior

The motor is a Mercruiser 140. I plan on doing the electronic conversion and an MSD style box. How much speed does a hydrofoil usually cause you to loose?

Chris
 

smokeonthewater

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
9,838
Re: Need an explanation of rpm behavior

no such number.... might gain speed and might lose it... personally I think a foil on an I/O is generally a bad idea.

take it off and try it
 

Bronlonius

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 21, 2012
Messages
145
Re: Need an explanation of rpm behavior

I'd try without the hydrofoil. Chances are it's not helping anything and just creating unnecessary drag. Whether or not a hydrofoil is useful totally depends on the boat though. You'll know if you need it or not once you try running your boat without it.
 
Top