My boat won't restart even when engine is still cold

[scipper77]

I have an '84 ChrisCraft Scorpion (17 footer) with a mercruiser 185 engine (3.8 liter). I believe the engine is a 1983 and is not original to the boat.

I always start the boat at home on the hose before I go to the launch. Last week the boat started at home but would not start in the water at the launch, It just cranked and cranked. I repaired a pair of corroded wires that I found that came off of the 60 amp breaker and went to the lower unit. The boat started that day shut off and restarted with no problems. I few days later I wanted to take the boat fishing so I started the boat at home, let it run for around 15-20 seconds shut the engine down and it would not restart.

I pulled a plug and there definitely is spark.

When I give throttle fuel does spray from the jets in the carb.

Distributor cap/rotor/condenser and points were done 2 seasons ago and show no cause for alarm

Let me be clear that this problem shows up well before the engine is warm, and even an hour later the engine won't restart.

I have ideas what the problem may be but will reserve my personal opinion to keep responses unbiased.

 

[Don S]

Re: My boat won't restart even when engine is still cold

What EXACTLY is your starting procedure. Include what you do with the throttle position.

Distributor cap/rotor/condenser and points were done 2 seasons ago and show no cause for alarm

2 years alarms me. Do a tuneup.

 

[scipper77]

Re: My boat won't restart even when engine is still cold

I crank the engine for a sec or 2, and then if it doesn't start right up like when it's been sitting I stop cranking, pump the throttle fully twice, and while cranking ease the throttle forward until the boat starts.

I'm a little confused as to how to tune up the distributor other than to regap the points. When I say that these parts were done two years ago I mean that I replaced all of them with new.

 

[JustJason]

Re: My boat won't restart even when engine is still cold

you should pump twice then hold the throttle open 1/4 to 1/3, then crank. You should only have to crank first if the boats been sitting over a month and all the gas in the carb bowl has evaported.

That being said....
You should tune your engine every year, this ain't a car and it required maintenece.
Every year, replace points and condensor, plugs, rotor, cap and all your fuel filters. Set your Dwell, set your timing, check for advance, clean the flame arrestor, set idle mixture and set idle speed, change the oil..... That's a tune up and that's required every year. the plug wires you can do every 2 to 3 depending on the hours and salt exposure.

and that being said..... pulling a plug and holding it to ground and watching it spark..... doesn't necessarily mean you have good spark.

 

[chiefalen]

Re: My boat won't restart even when engine is still cold

At night or in a totally dark garage, turn the engine over you will see where the sparks are flying.

That being said have you checked all the fuel filters? The one in the fitting bye the carb., in the fuel pump, and water separator, fuel pickup tube.

Have you checked the one way valve on top of the gas tank?

Vent clear.

Fuel pump good, need 4-6 pounds of pressure.

Compression good 100- 130 maybe more?

Cables good? grounds good? Connections good?

Post back after you do the checks let us know whats up.

 

[scipper77]

Re: My boat won't restart even when engine is still cold

captJason,

I truly do appreciate the tune up advise!

This boat is fresh water only, and while I am prabably out on the water 50 to 60 hours a season (Here in NY that's around 5-6 months) the motor only sees around 10 hours of run time as I primarily fish with the motor off.
I think (for whatever that's worth) that replacing the points/condensor every year is a bit much.

A race car mechanic advised me that setting the dwell is ideal for peak performance (like when tuning a race engine), but setting the points gap to the factory spec is sufficient for normal operation as I am not equiped to set the dwell.

Flame arrestor is clean, plugs and wires are good.

Idle adjustments are a point well taken but for purposes of my starting problem are probably not the cause (Idles perfect when it does start).

I do need to change the fuel filters!! I can only hope that my problem is that simple.

What I think the real problem may be is the float in the carb is sinking. When the boat sits the excess feul evaporates and the motor starts. After any amount of running there is a flooding condition and the boat won't start. Does this seem reasonable to anyone???

 

[chiefalen]

Re: My boat won't restart even when engine is still cold

Sir: i was of the impression you wish to discover the cause of your boat not running correctly.

One simple test, pump the throttle twice, leave in the neutral position 1/3 of the way down and jump the starter at the solenoid.

Does it start?

Here is a old post i wrote.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=279525

Good luck! I won't be trying to help you anymore..

 

[scipper77]

Re: My boat won't restart even when engine is still cold

chiefalen,
I'm sorry that you will not be helping me but i do wish to reply to your first post.

I have full intentions of following every instruction inyour post.

Specifically i will run in the dark
I will run with gas cap off in case it is the vent
I will replace all filters as this needs to be done anyways
I will check the compression
I have allready cleaned every connection I could find, even the connections to the bilge pump and blower motor

the only issue on your list that I don't know how to do is check the fuel pressure.

Hopefully this weekend I will havea chance to knock off the items on this list.

If I came off resistant to captJason's post, I truly am sorry. I have read so many posts on this site where people throw parts at a problem and don't neccesarily get a solution. Believe me, I am willing to replace the points and buy a dwell meter if thats what it takes, I just don't feel comfortable doing this as a first step.

Again, a personal apology to captJason, I hope I have not alienated myself from you or anyone else who is only a member here to help people.

 

[Fishermark]

Re: My boat won't restart even when engine is still cold

I don't know if the points are the cause of your problem or not - but they can get glazed from sitting unused - that's why it is a good idea to change them each season. Better yet, replace them with an electronic conversion kit.

Don't worry - there's still plenty of help here on the board.

 

[JustJason]

Re: My boat won't restart even when engine is still cold

No apologys needed to me friend. We are all here to help.
You stated you had a starting problem, which in mechanic's eyes is not the same thing as a running problem.
All an engine needs to start/run is compression, correct fuel, and correct spark ignition. If it's hard to start, your lacking in one of thsoe areas.
If you say "you don't think" ..... because of something you heard from a racecar guy..... just put that out of your head for sake of arguement.... because we are only here to help!
In old school engines with points, you have to set dwell first. Since dwell affects timing, you need to have correct dwell before you can possibly have correct timing. If you have an engine that is supposed to have 6 degrees base timing, but you don't have correct dwell you may have 1-2 degrees of base timing instead. It's not just a high-end, high-rpm adjustment.
And before you think about going through the fuel system, you need to go through the ignition system first. 2 or 3 degrees of timing makes more of a difference than all of the screws on the carb combined.
Don't discount a suggestion..... don't discount at all.... check it and either decide that it's not in specification, and it's a contributing problen, or check it and decide that it is in spec, and not a problem. either way..... check it. a dwell meter can be had at sears for 30 bucks.

 

[scipper77]

Re: My boat won't restart even when engine is still cold

Turns out one of my coworkers has a dwell meter and timing light. I'll see if I can borrow.
can the recent cooler temps affect the timing?

 

[Fishermark]

Re: My boat won't restart even when engine is still cold

can the recent cooler temps affect the timing?

No.

 

[chiefalen]

Re: My boat won't restart even when engine is still cold

Maybe i too was a bit cross.

I wanted to see if you can jump it at the solenoid because i think it may be, it's going bad.

You say you cleaned all the connections? The grounds also.

You followed the neg cable to the engine ground?

Took it off and cleaned it?

 

[drrm123]

Re: My boat won't restart even when engine is still cold

scipper77 about your #6 post, yes if the float is sticking it will cause the engine to flood, next time it happens try cranking w-throttle wide open, if it starts just try adjusting float level or rebuild carb. you may be able to see gas leaking into carb after shutting off engine or have heavy fuel odor.

 

[scipper77]

Re: My boat won't restart even when engine is still cold

OK I ran a few simple tests and I would like to take my hat off to chiefalen!!! more on that later.

As I don't yet have a dwell meter or timing light in my possesion I figured that the least I could do was check my points gap which was by the way still right at the factory spec. I know that this spec really is just the factory guessing what the gap should be for the correct dwell but as I said this was a least I could do test. I next checked the compression. Cylinders 135 are port, 246 stbd.

1 - 125 psi 2 - 118 psi
3 - 115 psi 4 - 115 psi
5 - 117 psi 6 - 118 psi

from what I think I know these numbers are good.

Spark plugs are all gapped correctly but are also blackened like they are running rich. Other than the color the plugs look as if they were new. I cleaned the electrodes on the plugs just because it seemed like the right thing to do.

So next I started the engine which stumbled and bumbled pretty good at first, shut it off and the boat restarted on the first crank. this boat always runs really well once started.
Remembering some other threads that I had read I grabbed my volt meter and checked the voltage across the coil (boat not running, key in run position) and read about 5.5 volts. From what I've read this number should have been at least 8 volts.

A little research on this site pointed me in the direction of a faulty starter solenoid. Just as chiefalen predicted.

Should I replace the solenoid or is there some other test I need to run to verify the bad solenoid.
BTW chiefalen, I have not jumped the solenoid as you suggested, should I still do that at this point?

I still plan on checking the dwell and timing and still need to replace the fuel filters, but with my busy life lately I may not get a chance to touch the boat again untill next weekend. so be patient with me if I don't get back to people with there suggestions promptly.

 

[scipper77]

Re: My boat won't restart even when engine is still cold

...with my busy life lately I may not get a chance to touch the boat again untill next weekend. so be patient with me if I don't get back to people with there suggestions promptly.

I rechecked the coil voltage.... 5V across the coil, 12V when I tested across the battery + going into the solenoid and the negative at the coil.
Also 5V across the solenoid (other end of wire to coil +) and coil -

I can get a replacement starter solenoid at the autozone down the road for $20. I looked up a 1983 Monte Carlo with a 3.8 liter engine bacause it is the same year and engine that is in my boat.

Should this solenoid work on my boat??

Can I safely use an automotive solenoid on my boat or is this part one that you must have the marine version of to prevent sparking?

 

[chiefalen]

Re: My boat won't restart even when engine is still cold

Nowadays i know most people including myself buy a all new starter.

Marine of course the spark issue.

Worth the few extra dollars for me to maybe get to see my kids grow up,if i stop smoking that is ha.

E-bay has them i buy from DB electrical alot, for myself and my friends.

Did you do any tests on the slav solenoid.

Before you pull the starter you cleaned the connections?

Want to try one more test?

Run a jumper wire to the coil from the battery with a switch at the helm.

Flip the switch and start the boat.

Do it on the water hot /cold see if this fixs your problem than it's the slav solenoid going bad.

But caution this switch must be off when the boat is not running or starting.

DO NOT LEAVE POWER GOING TO THE COIL WHEN THE MOTOR IS OFF.

 

[scipper77]

Re: My boat won't restart even when engine is still cold

Nowadays i know most people including myself buy a all new starter.

Marine of course the spark issue.

Worth the few extra dollars for me to maybe get to see my kids grow up,if i stop smoking that is ha.....

So do I need to replace the whole starter, or just the $20 solenoid switch?? Money is a little tight right now as I am paying for a kitchen remodel

Does the voltage drop come from the starter or the solenoid?

Chiefalen, From your anwser it is clear to me that the starter needs to be a marine starter. What I am still unclear on is the solenoid switch (i was calling it a starter solenoid in the previous post). Is the slave solenoid the same thing or are there two solenoids related to the starter?

 

[chiefalen]

Re: My boat won't restart even when engine is still cold

Heres what one looks like pos cable should run into it. It captures the power, different than other solenoids hence slave selnoid.

It cuts power to everything but the coil and the starter however maybe it's going and not supplying enough power to the coil as you crank the starter which demands alot of juice.

Very simple to find out.

Run a wire from the battery pos to the helm with a switch other side of the switch to the pos side of the coil.

It's temorary.

Now on the water or the trailer with water going to the drive start the boat bye first flip switch on.

Never leave switch on unless your running the motor or starting the boat.

After boat starts flip switch off.

Now whenever you want to start the boat first flip switch, hot ,cold, motor and see if it fixs the problem.

If it does its the slave going and not giving enough juice to the coil.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Part...rms=39:1|65:10|240:1318&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245

 

[chiefalen]

Re: My boat won't restart even when engine is still cold

Maybe im not being clear 2 different solenoid and i don't think it's the starter.

It just may well be a slave. All you need is some wire and a unused switch at the helm, or take the switch from the lets say indoor light.

Any switch would do.

Do you have someone to help you?

Than you can hook the wire to the pos side of the battery and touch the pos side of the coil while someone else cranks and starts the motor.

Do it hot motor cold motor if it fixs the problem post the result.

What this wire is called is a jumper wire. Your jumping everything and giving straight power to the coil.

The starter will get juice the normal way it usually gets power.

Won't hurt anything.

Just make sure your holding the insulated part of the wire.