Minimum time to switch to synthetic?

[Jake Windemere]

I have two relatively new Honda outboards.

One is a brand new 20 hp.

One is a one year old 50/35 jet. The jet motor has between 20 and 30 hours of use.

I have been advised by two different dealers to wait hundreds of hours prior to switching to Amsoil synthetic.

I would like to switch, as I want to use my outboard for late season Alaska duck shooting. I encounter subzero temperatures, so I would like to switch to synthetic, as I don't think that my outboard will like operating on dino oil in minus temps.

What would be sufficient time for break in to switch to synthetic?

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Minimum time to switch to synthetic?

In theory...Never. The reason no outboard manufacturer recommends synthetic is because of fuel dilution. Are you worried about the dino oil being to thick?

 

[chevyjet]

Re: Minimum time to switch to synthetic?

I always switch at 50 hrs, but lots of stuff comes with synthetic from day one. You likely won`t have problems with fuel dilution unless you idle for extended periods.

 

[Jake Windemere]

Re: Minimum time to switch to synthetic?

Fuel dilution? If I understand this correctly it is the accumulation of blown by raw gasoline that dilutes the crankcase oil. Also, I would suspect that the cool temperatures of an outboard run in water that is 32 degrees to 40 degrees would result in condensation in the crankcase, adding water to the mix.

Either way the outboard "makes oil" raising the level of oil on the dipstick.

Is that what you mean?

Neither is an issue with me, because I am so meticulous about maintenance that I change my oil WAY too frequently to be good economically.

To me, way frequent oil changes are cheap insurance.

And, yes, I am worried about dino oil in zero temps. I am worried about cranking and wear with thickened dino oil. That last thing I want is a dead battery from attempting to start a sluggish motor when the temps are dangerous.

 

[marquette]

Re: Minimum time to switch to synthetic?

hi
iv'e broken a lot of ice duck hunting here in minnesota but never at below zero temps. below freezing often but not below zero. i'm asssuming that you must have done some below zero hunting to have 2 motors set up for it. have you been using snythetic in other motors or has the dino oil worked ok? if the dino has worked ok i would stay with it. what are most of the guides running in their motors or the other hunters that have been doing it awhile? you are looking to put a motor in extreme conditions that 99% of us have never operated a motor in so i would go ask the guys that do. since honda sells there motors to several search and rescue units maybe honda can give you the best advise based on their extreme weather testing. i would think at those tempertures you would have several problems to deal with, tell tale freezing in a matter of minutes of shutting the motor off, steering grease stiffening, plastic getting brittle, possibly all the water in the cooling system freezing if the motor is shut off too long, getting all the water out of the motor when you pull the boat out, ect.

 

[Jake Windemere]

Re: Minimum time to switch to synthetic?

Believe it or not, I have hunted from my boat at minus 35 degrees Fahrenheit. The Kenai River stays open until after the close of duck season on December 16th.

FWIW, on the day it was 35 below I didn't shoot any ducks. Needless to say my dog appreciated that fact.

I have hunted a lot at ten below (which the dog seems to not mind at all). In the past I used a 25 hp two stroke Johnson, a 30 hp two stroke Evinrude, and a 40 hp two stroke Yamaha.

I have run synthetic Amsoil two stroke oil in the Evinrude and the Yamaha.

At subzero temps it is still a bit of a challenge to get the two stroke engines to fire up.

However, I have not run a four stroke with a crankcase full of oil at those temperatures. I have run Amsoil in all of my other gasoline powered machines (truck, snow blower, etc.) I appreciate the cold flow of the synthetic and would like to use it in my four stroke Hondas.

If the lower unit stays in the water it doesn't seem to freeze. The tell tale might freeze but trust me when I say that the engines don't get anywhere near overheating!

Once out of water I turn over the engine to sweep any water out of the water pump.

 

[Jake Windemere]

Re: Minimum time to switch to synthetic?

Kenai River at 19 below zero Fahrenheit.

Yamaha two stroke with Amsoil.

 

[gary - k7gld]

Re: Minimum time to switch to synthetic?

I use Amsoil synthetic in my Honda 2000i generator due to the greater viscosity stability in temperature extremes, and stability against additive deterioration it provides in an engine only used occasionally and sits unused for extended periods.

I'll use Amsoil in my new Nissan 4-stroke 9.8 outboard for the same reason!

BUT, I'll be SURE to use the Amsoil refined especially FOR 4-stroke marine use, and that carries the NMMA FC-W rating.

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Minimum time to switch to synthetic?

Jake,

Your situation isn't normal and synthetic may be your best choice. But, keep in mind those frequent oil changes add up to some extra money you will never see again. I'm surprised more people don't run a heater line to the crankcase. But, I'm lazy myself and synth would be appealing to me as well

gary - k7gld,

"I'll use Amsoil in my new Nissan 4-stroke 9.8 outboard for the same reason!"

It's a bad idea for you to do that. Nissan specifically says NOT to use synthetic oil because of fuel dilution.

 

[Jake Windemere]

Re: Minimum time to switch to synthetic?

I called the service folks at Honda Marine and asked them the question that is the title of this thread.

The guy who answered the phone seemed to read me a company line on synthetic oil. He had no minimum break in time prior to switching to synthetic. I told him about the two dealers suggesting hundreds of hours of use. He said that the dealers' opinions were their own opinions and not the position of Honda Marine.

He said that the time to switch over to synthetic was when the customer wished to change over to synthetic.

So, I basically got a "nonanswer" to my question.

It would be nice if a mechanic, particularly one who has honed cylinders and rebuilt engines would say something like:

Rings are fully seated after ______ hours of operation.

I just don't want to switch too soon and have an oil burner on my hands.

 

[gary - k7gld]

Re: Minimum time to switch to synthetic?

WELL, I dunno what the "official" company (Nissan, Tohatsu, Mercury) line is as related to use of a proper spec'd NMMA FC-W marine grade synthetic in these engines - but for sure, my 9.8 owner's and service manual says absolutely NOTHING about their use - and certainly, no warnings AGAINST their use.

I know for a fact that my Corvette and '98 LS-1 engined Camaro SS came direct from the factory filled with Mobil 1. Yeah, not outboard or marine engines, but...

I've encountered and been involved in my share of "oil wars" related to use of synthetics over on the automotive boards I'm involved in - didn't expect to see them here as well!

 

[Jake Windemere]

Re: Minimum time to switch to synthetic?

Here's an interesting article about breaking in outboards. It also mentions the use of synthetic oil for break in.

http://www.soundingspub.com/ME2/dir...9A&id=B5638A5710674A4D8108D5A4FB5A112B&tier=4

 

[gary - k7gld]

Re: Minimum time to switch to synthetic?

Here's an interesting article about breaking in outboards. It also mentions the use of synthetic oil for break in.

http://www.soundingspub.com/ME2/dir...9A&id=B5638A5710674A4D8108D5A4FB5A112B&tier=4

Interesting article - thanks for the pointer, I liked this comment:

My experience with numerous new and rebuilt engines is that when using either full or blended synthetic oils, the time required to complete the break-in is substantially longer, due in part to the increased lubricity of synthetics. Representatives from Volvo Penta and Suzuki agree with my observation, though a Mercury Marine representative reminded me that its Verado engines use a synthetic blend at all times.

Seems to me, the adverse comments towards use of synthetics in this thread revolve primarily around the expressed tendency for engines as discussed here, to run at erratic or lower than ideal temperatures - and that the use of the superior lubricating synthetics aggravates this problem.

It seems an unacceptable shame that as a bandaid approach to what seems basically a design weakness or thermostat related engine cooling issue, owners are urged to use a POORER lubricant than they would otherwise, simply as a tool to build the greater friction and heat - as well as increased WEAR - these poorer lubes supply.

IF engine cooling/temperature control IS the basic issue here - why not (if possible!) address and correct THAT issue, rather than sacrifice lubricant quality?

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Minimum time to switch to synthetic?

http://www.tohatsu.com/tech_info/faqs.html#Q10

 

[gary - k7gld]

Re: Minimum time to switch to synthetic?

http://www.tohatsu.com/tech_info/faqs.html#Q10

UMMmmmm - looks like Tohatsu does not recommend AGAINST using synthetics, but rather, merely does not specifically recommend it in ALL situations:

Because outboard motors have raw water cooling systems and run in varying water temperatures, unlike other water cooled 4-stroke engines, it can be difficult to maintain sufficient engine temperature in some geographic areas. Therefore, we do not always recommend using synthetic oil in our 4-stroke outboard motors, especially during break-in, due to the lowered engine temperature which could contribute to fuel/oil dilution.

Not to be argumentative here, but even at that, I'd still investigate practical methods towards better engine temperature control by way of coolant flow (thermostat?), rather than "adjusting" lubricant quality to compensate for a problem that actually is in another area.

Is it possible - or likely - that the thermostat and coolant system in general, in these engines, is too poorly designed to be improved for more stable operating temperatures?

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Minimum time to switch to synthetic?

Actually it originally stated "AGAINST". I changed the wording on the advisory to reflect that under some circumstances it would be acceptable to use it. IE High hours, high RPM in a short period of time.

All four-stoke outboards suffer the same effects to some degree. Honda for instance, had major problems with one model a few years ago that resulted in thermostat changes for different water temps. If you want to make a case that all four-stoke outboard engines are poorly designed because of their inherent inability to operate in all environments, without modification, equally...I would agree. If you want to point out one brand as being poorly designed because of this inherent flaw in all four stroke outboard power...You would be incorrect.

As I loathe all four-strokes equally I would suggest you write your local congressman and attempt to get legislation passed so that we could go back to light weight 2-stroke outboards.

 

[gary - k7gld]

Re: Minimum time to switch to synthetic?

As I loathe all four-strokes equally I would suggest you write your local congressman and attempt to get legislation passed so that we could go back to light weight 2-stroke outboards.

WELL, if we could get the quietness and smooth trolling characteristics from the 2-strokes - as well as the economy, I'd sure go along with that. I gained 20 pounds weight going from my 9.8 Gamefisher/Mercury 2-stroke to the new 4-stroke. So far, it was a good trade, the new engine is amazingly quiet, and trolls beautifully...

 

[Jake Windemere]

Re: Minimum time to switch to synthetic?

I LOVE my new Honda 50/35 Jet. The thing runs smooth as a top and is nice and quiet. I wish it were lighter for those times I get my jon boat stuck on a sand bar. But, it is a reasonable trade off.

I am excited about using my brand spanking new Honda 20. At 103 pounds it will be easy to lug and it should be a lot more economical than my older Evinrude 30 hp two stroke. I would guess that it will be very quiet.

Plus, my 2 hp Honda, while a bit noisy (it is air cooled) has been such a reliable operator that I eagerly tell anyone who will stand still long enough that it was the best "outdoor equipment" purchase that I have ever made.

I don't like the negative issues surrounding four strokes, but Honda has been making only four stokes for most of my life and they are still selling them, so there must be something good there.

Thanks so far for the discussion on the minimum time to switch to synthetic.

 

[gary - k7gld]

Re: Minimum time to switch to synthetic?

Another observation - not that it makes any difference at this point.

In all the automobiles I've owned in my 50+ years of driving, I've driven in ambient temps from 118 degrees, down to -30, and the engine thermostat always maintained a steady coolant temperature. The vehicle radiators rely on ambient airflow to transfer engine heat from the coolant - and are themselves dependant to the temps they operate in to function correctly and maintain proper engine temperature. And we get pretty excited when they don't!

SO, It's still a puzzle to me, why the outboard engine makers (apparently) seem incapable of stable engine cooling systems design in engines that typically actually see LESS variation in temperature swings than land vehicles do...

Like I said, just an observation...

 

[Jake Windemere]

Re: Minimum time to switch to synthetic?

After reading and listening to lots of opinions regarding synthetic oil I have finally made a decision on how to proceed.

First off, it makes perfect sense to run a new engine until after the rings have seated and the honing in the cylinders is properly "broken in".

My best guess from all of the conflicting information that I have sorted through is that the rings get seated relatively soon. The manufacturer's break in procedure of ten hours of careful running seems to be more than sufficient to seat the rings (using mineral/dino oil).

Once the rings are properly seated it seems to me that the extra slipperiness of synthetic could only be of positive value in the continued break in of all of the other parts. "Break in" involves wear, so after the rings are seated the less wear, the better, IMHO.

The downsides to synthetic seems to be cooler running temperatures, resulting in more fuel/oil dilution - the drawback to having a crankcase on a cool running engine that is used a lot for trolling. Gasoline makes its way into the crankcase, diluting the oil and reducing the protection of the oil.

So, here's what I think is a prudent course of action.

Run your new engine using the dealer's brand of mineral/dino oil for the break in period, or longer if you prefer.

Change the oil and the filter very frequently. Sure, oil and filters cost money, but so does catastrophic engine failure. Also, engine failure at an inopportune time (like when your boat is heading down a rapids with exposed boulders, or when you are heading for a sweeper) has incalculable costs.

Once you pass the break in period and find yourself faced with cold temperatures at the tail end of your boating season, the use of synthetic would be beneficial because the oil will flow well at start up, protecting the engine from a lack of lubrication. Also, the reduced resistance of synthetic at cold temperatures might mean the difference between starting your engine or canceling your adventure because you ran your battery down trying to crank an engine full of molasses.

Once you have changed over to synthetic continue to change the oil and filter frequently. I plan on changing mine every five or ten hours or so. That means one to four changes during the summer. This would take care of any fuel/oil dilution concerns.

I paid over $6000 for my new Honda 50/35 Jet, so the cost of oil and filters is inconsequential. It is unlikely that I will be "allowed" to replace this engine anytime in the next ten or twenty years (married guys know what I am talking about) so I plan on having an engine that is babied.

I do know that compared to the two strokes that I have owned, my Honda is head and shoulders above. It starts quickly and runs smooth. Frequent changes with synthetic oil seems to be the best way to honor the engineers who put their best efforts into providing us with a quality product.