Marine repair shop....small business start up advice.

Leedanger

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
May 29, 2011
Messages
323
Hello friends. So for a year now I have been slowly doing more and more as a marine mechanic and I finally decided to just jump in with both feet and start working for myself. I just officially got my business license and while it's just me working out of my carport, work has been steady thus far.

My biggest issue has been determining pricing and giving quotes. I just don't know what to charge. I know what the going rate is for other shops locally....about $90 per hour is average, but I just can't justify anything close to that just yet. Also I a notable deficit in experience and I know that it is going to take me 4x's longer to do some jobs than it will a guy that's been doing it for 20 years. So I guess what I am asking is how do I find out what the industry standard is for time per job. i.e. I know realistically for me it takes about 3 hours to do a carb rebuild...that varies slightly buy on average that's about how long it takes me. So should I just do by my own averages and estimates or is there a way to find out what the standard is so I'm not ripping of myself or my clients?

Up until now I've been comfortable taking a $25 per hour salary...but this was also before I was legit if you know what I mean and now need to determine how much to charge in order to continue to pay myself comparable wages and still put monies back into the business. I don't really have a ton of write offs, I rent a duplex so I don't really have a big mortgage that I can use to write off my income tax but I do have plenty of expenses. Anyway....I don't want to drone on or give any sob stories, but I am doing this pretty much all by myself and just don't really know what I am doing. My Dad dead and I don't really have any mentor figures in my life so I am hoping this community can give me just a little bit of advice.

Cheers.
 

robert graham

Admiral
Joined
Apr 16, 2009
Messages
6,908
Re: Marine repair shop....small business start up advice.

I expect you're going to have a learning curve regarding the hourly rates that you charge, the length of time for each job, and which jobs to do and which ones to say, "that's just beyond my capabilities/experience/special equipment". There should be a good market for folks who want their motors winterized, tuned up, minor repairs like water pumps, carbs cleaned, new spark plugs, lower units drained and refilled, etc.,etc. You're probably never going to be an "all things to all people" type mechanic, maybe better to find your niche, comfort zone, specialties that you're good at and can make money doing. Do a good, honest job, treat everone fairly, and your business will hopefully flourish and grow! A reputation for honesty and integrity should serve you well! Good Luck!
 

62 ROYAL SCOTT

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
May 29, 2011
Messages
280
Re: Marine repair shop....small business start up advice.

HELLO sounds like you got a plan. so you want to work for yourself GREAT, you have been making 25 p/h that's good $ now you got a lic. so now you need more $ well i don't understand if 25 was a price you could live with why raise your price what about all your customers that you did work for and they come backfor more work and you say i got a lic. now thee price is 50 p/h there goes all your customers that you had built up,what type of lic. do you have and how many yrs. of exp.
 

Fireman431

Rear Admiral
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
4,292
Re: Marine repair shop....small business start up advice.

There are a lot of service manuals (i.e. Chilton) that will give an average hourly estimate on the time it takes to do the marine work. You'll have to find the service tech manuals online for the info (look into www.scribd.com). Your actual time will prob be considerably more until you get the experience on each make and model, and the manual estimates don't allow for frozed bolts, rounded nuts, drilling out broken pieces, etc.

Now that you're legit, please check into business insurance if you haven't already. It's not that expensive in a lot of areas and could keep you from losing your life savings and your home in case of an accident (one accidentally dropped 150 HP engine can set you back thousands).

Last note, make sure your city/county allow this work in a residential area. Fines suck, too.

Best of luck in your new business. I always lean toward the small business owner whenever I can.
 

scrit9mm

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
May 31, 2011
Messages
425
Re: Marine repair shop....small business start up advice.

I will give you a tip from the consumer's side. If you are keeping someones property overnight or for days extend your business hours another hour in the evening. Create that hour to call your customer's and give them an progress report and an updated time to complete. My biggest complaint and one of the reason's I dont take my stuff to repair shops is the lack of knowledge on repair times. Your customer's will be less upset if you told them about a problem when it comes up instead of saying there were 5 sheared off bolts I had to drill out so you owe me another $100. You could even send it via email, that way you would limit the time on the phone. Do that and you could also write off your phone or computer as a business expense.
 

Beefer

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
1,737
Re: Marine repair shop....small business start up advice.

HELLO sounds like you got a plan. so you want to work for yourself GREAT, you have been making 25 p/h that's good $ now you got a lic. so now you need more $ well i don't understand if 25 was a price you could live with why raise your price what about all your customers that you did work for and they come backfor more work and you say i got a lic. now thee price is 50 p/h there goes all your customers that you had built up,what type of lic. do you have and how many yrs. of exp.

Because he is now a business, and not a guy working on stuff to earn a few extra bucks.

The difference is that now he has to pay insurance, has to (or should) get proper manuals which aren't cheap, should go to CE courses on the products he wants to service. Probably has to subscribe to a service that gives him notification/access to new information, recalls, and service bulletins. He also wants to be able to expand the business, get a shop, and in return service his customers fully.

As a 'legitimate' business now, he has opened himself up to all sorts of liabilities, which every business owner has to prepare against. Because he is running the business out of his home, he may have to pay additional fees/licenses/taxes, etc. for the ability to do that in his locale. He also has to prepare for 'warranty' work; work that may be required after the original repair. That work isn't free for the business owner, but it's something a customer of a legitimate business expects (rightfully).

If he continues to charge the $25/hr., it'll be great for a bit, but after a while, he'll either shut down, or become known as the guy that now how to only work on xyz.

Start a business, and you'll have a better understanding of why things cost what they do.
 

62 ROYAL SCOTT

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
May 29, 2011
Messages
280
Re: Marine repair shop....small business start up advice.

HELLO BEEFER I understand it cost $ i want to read his reply and so i can reply and also i should have not asked those ?'s after i reread his post. [lic.] business [exp] been doing a lot of marine work lately
 

coastalrichard

Lieutenant
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
1,255
Re: Marine repair shop....small business start up advice.

Lee:

Fireman431 and Beefer are both givings great insights for you. I can't speak of the details of the pricing model for a marine mechanic, however, it seems to me that if you used your "average hourly" that you speak of together with the time estimates in your manuals, you should at least be competitive with others in your market. As you gain competency, your gross profit will steadily increase as you improve your productivity.

I run a small catering business. The zoning permits "cottage" businesses on-site and other prerequisites for my operation are in place (water, sewer, elec., waste disposal, etc.). What is important to fledgling business owners is to ensure that you do not overlook expensing all legitimate expenses that you are incurring.

For example, auto expenses. Now that you are using your vehicle for business use, make sure you either keep track of your expenses in detail or log and use the mileage deduction. There are TONS of other expenses that you are now paying with "pre-tax" dollars that can now be expensed against your revenues: telephone, cable (you email customers, don't you), percentage of your home insurance (you're dedicating space in your residence for purely business purposes, right?), same for utilities, water, sewer, lawn care (don't laugh, I was able to expense clearing and maintaining an additional acre of my land around my kitchen facility for "rodent control"), property taxes, and on and on...

Your best bet is to incorporate your business (elect Sub-S status for IRS purposes) and hire an accountant. I know that may sound like unnecessary at this point, but isn't it your intention to make a buck? It's particularly vital to start-ups to examine and record your existing expense structure to determine not IF, but HOW MUCH of these expenses you charge against your revenues. Having a separate "entity" (ie corporation) in your life is a great thing!

Good luck and keep wrenching!
 

Leedanger

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
May 29, 2011
Messages
323
Re: Marine repair shop....small business start up advice.

Wow....Let me begin just by saying thank you to all of you for taking time out of your day to share with me your wisdom and experience. I'm overwhelmed with gratitude. Thank you.

I expect you're going to have a learning curve regarding the hourly rates that you charge, the length of time for each job, and which jobs to do and which ones to say, "that's just beyond my capabilities/experience/special equipment".

Hello Robert Graham,
I agree with you completely. Knowing the difference between being brave enough to tackle jobs that Im not that familiar with and being foolishly agressive is a fine line and one I should walk with vigilance.

HELLO sounds like you got a plan. so you want to work for yourself GREAT, you have been making 25 p/h that's good $ now you got a lic. so now you need more $ well i don't understand if 25 was a price you could live with why raise your price what about all your customers that you did work for and they come backfor more work and you say i got a lic. now thee price is 50 p/h there goes all your customers that you had built up,what type of lic. do you have and how many yrs. of exp.

Hi 62 Royal Scott,

I'm really glad that you raised the same questions I was asking myself. I felt like I had reasons for my increase, but to be honest I don't think without writing them down I would be able to succinctly relay them to a customer especially to my existing clientele. It would be ridiculous for me to raise my prices without being able to directly convey and justify the reasons as to why.

Because he is now a business, and not a guy working on stuff to earn a few extra bucks.

The difference is that now he has to pay insurance, has to (or should) get proper manuals which aren't cheap, should go to CE courses on the products he wants to service. Probably has to subscribe to a service that gives him notification/access to new information, recalls, and service bulletins. He also wants to be able to expand the business, get a shop, and in return service his customers fully.

As a 'legitimate' business now, he has opened himself up to all sorts of liabilities, which every business owner has to prepare against. Because he is running the business out of his home, he may have to pay additional fees/licenses/taxes, etc. for the ability to do that in his locale. He also has to prepare for 'warranty' work; work that may be required after the original repair. That work isn't free for the business owner, but it's something a customer of a legitimate business expects (rightfully).

If he continues to charge the $25/hr., it'll be great for a bit, but after a while, he'll either shut down, or become known as the guy that now how to only work on xyz.

Hey Beefer....I like you man and I equally appreciate your apparent passion for small business owners. I don't think 62 Scott Royal was necessarily trying to attack me as much as he was trying to challenge my answers, but non-the-less it feels good to have someone reconfirm the high unseen costs of running a legit business. Both of your responses helped me accomplish a whole series of unanswered questions I had bouncing around in my head. Thank you sir.


There are a lot of service manuals (i.e. Chilton) that will give an average hourly estimate on the time it takes to do the marine work. You'll have to find the service tech manuals online for the info (look into www.scribd.com). Your actual time will prob be considerably more until you get the experience on each make and model, and the manual estimates don't allow for frozed bolts, rounded nuts, drilling out broken pieces, etc.

Now that you're legit, please check into business insurance if you haven't already. It's not that expensive in a lot of areas and could keep you from losing your life savings and your home in case of an accident (one accidentally dropped 150 HP engine can set you back thousands).

Last note, make sure your city/county allow this work in a residential area. Fines suck, too.

Fireman431....Priceless advice sir.

All of these items I've considered, but to be truthful I have been foolishly procrastinating them because it's just another item on my plate. I'm glad you raised the issue because you are right...If I were to drop a motor or get hit with locale municipality violations it could be catastrophic enough to shut the whole thing down. My plan is to apply your advice immediately.

Create that hour to call your customer's and give them an progress report and an updated time to complete.

Hello Scrit9mm...great point. So annoying and unprofessional to have bad communication practices and I need to be accountable for the already frequent moments of **** poor communication with my customers. As easy as it is to do in conjunction with the importance of it, there really isn't any excuse for it. Nothing worse than being left in the dark about what's going on with your boat or project and yet I have done just that in the past. More advice I will implement immediately.

Your best bet is to incorporate your business (elect Sub-S status for IRS purposes) and hire an accountant. I know that may sound like unnecessary at this point, but isn't it your intention to make a buck? It's particularly vital to start-ups to examine and record your existing expense structure to determine not IF, but HOW MUCH of these expenses you charge against your revenues. Having a separate "entity" (ie corporation) in your life is a great thing!

CostalRichard...Hey boss, hopefully my thank you's aren't redundant at this point because they are all so well deserved. I have been spending allot of time trying to educate myself to the whole new world of business finances. I'm also **** poor at record keeping and documentation and I can certainly ascertain that there is just no room for sloppy documentation in a start up. You bring up a whole new avenue of considerables and my plan is to allocate a certain amount of time to understanding and addressing these issues as they are certainly game changers if not addressed properly.

Ok, I've been where you are at so maybe I can lend a little insight. Like you I was doing boat repair / service as a side line or almost a hobby. When I decided to get into it further several things became apparent pretty fast.

In no time you will need a real shop. Working on a boat here or there doesn't upset many folks but once you have 2, 3 or more boats sitting around it becomes a different story. Ah, but you only plan on working on one boat at a time... Sorry but that won't work if you want to do it full time. You tear a boat apart to repair something, discover you need a part and it'll take a day or two to get them. Now what? Stand around for two days not generating income? Won't work. To remain productive (generating income) you'll probably have two or three boats that are work in progress just to stay busy / productive.

The next thing you'll quickly find is you need somewhere to store parts or even outdrive, engines, etc. (Maybe even parts boats.) When you run across a totaled boat but it has a good outdrive or engine for a couple hundered bucks and know you will need the parts in the future it's all but impossible to pass up a great donor boat. (Economics will force you to act.)

Next up is the capital investment in tools. You'll find you realy need the tools, equipment, and space to pull engines out. There are just too many times even a minor repair where its MUCH faster to simply pull the engine compared to trying to work on it in the boat. Once you have done it a few times you'll find you can pull most boat engines in 30 minutes or so. (With the right tools) Spending a day to do a simple repair in the boat compared to a half hour out, an hour to do the repair and another half hour to put it back in is the only cost effective way to go. (Not to mention risk of damaging the boat or getting oil, etc. everywhere and spending more time cleaning up.) Something else to give consideration to is the days of carbs. and distributors are at an end. You're going to have to find some classses on dealing with all the electronics and invest in the tools to work on them. Not doing so will cost you so much time it'll kill your business.


Another concideration is how far are you from water? Say someone pays you to rebuild a carb. and complete tune up. You can't very well tell them "It runs good on the hose, should work on the water". When you have to do an on the water test how much time is it going to eat up? What are you going to do when the customer says "It runs fine until it gets up to speed and then has no power"?

Finally, I found the market for "simple" repairs isn't a something you can build a business around. I have found there are two kinds of boat customers. The folks that want the simple things done at the lowest possible price (thin margins for you) and peole that bring you their boat and simple say, "Take care of everything". Those are the customers everyone wants and so do you. If you can't provide the service they want or need, they find someone that can.

As to pricing, thats a tough one and a real learning curve. The biggest thing you have to get your head around is that you will invest 8 hours a day (minimum) and you have to pay yourself for everyone of them. Lose two hours doing XYZ you have to charge enough on the remaining hours to make up for it. YOUR biggest challenge will be time management and making certain that time is compensated for.

An old rule of thumb for almost any sort of shop... Decide what you need for your wages ($25 and hour?) and then double it (minimum) to cover the costs of turning the lights one and cover dead time. (Time you must invest in the business but not generating income. Doing books, sales, calling / meeting with customers, chasing parts, (Chasing parts eats LOTS of time.), etc.)


Just my take on something,,, build good relationships with other vendors so you can out source a lot of work. As an expample you said about 3 hours to rebuild a carb. At $50 an hour that's $150. If you can find a quality shop that will do it for $100 you come out way ahead. Both because the cost is lower AND it frees you up to be doing something else to generate income. If you can do a couple of winterizations in theat same three hours and save $50 on the carb. rebuild in the process its a no brainer.

Good Lord Bubba1235...you are a gentleman and a scholar.

This sounds like my whole last year in verbatim. I couldn't agree more with everything you said and am so relieved to have someone that has been there confirm my thoughts on all fo these items. My instinct concerning a real shop is, like you said, that there is just no way I can't step in that direction yet as it should be it's a scary and critical move. Again I'm so glad that you confirmed what I was thinking. Obviously there is no way to be certain that I will be as successful as you or others have been, but there is certainty that being calculated in my actions and deliberate with my decisions improves the odds dramatically.

What a great community of people this place is. I remember as a kid how people treated and apparently revered one another differently at the dock and it's so cool to see that it still exists in all the familiar places. I don't know what it is about boats and being on the water, they are expensive, stressful, did I say expensive and stressful?....but then you see how it brings out the good in people and it reconfirms my desire to make a lifestyle out of it.

All the best wishes to you and yours to everyone.
 

62 ROYAL SCOTT

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
May 29, 2011
Messages
280
Re: Marine repair shop....small business start up advice.

Hello Leedanger, GREAT REPLY'S and GOOD LUCK . See ya on iboats
 

Beefer

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
1,737
Re: Marine repair shop....small business start up advice.

Just to add re CoastalRichard's advice about an accountant; get one who has other Marine Repair shops as clients (at least one), or experience with them. Accountants can look at all the numbers, and can tell you where you need to improve. Our accountant has been invaluable as a resource. And I'll ditto his suggestion to incorporate. Best of luck to ya!
 

greenbush future

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 28, 2009
Messages
1,814
Re: Marine repair shop....small business start up advice.

A general business plan would really help you stay on track, and while it isn't required, you did say you were going full time on this. The BP will help you focus on the profitable areas of your plan. You can't be everything to everyone. My guess is you will be very busy with the way the big boys treat customers. I'm sure if you did a poll about how people/customers feel they were treated, you will see $$$ signs everywhere and it wont be hard to take that business and create some good long term clients. And the best thing is referral business, it travels well, but bad service will travel 1000 times faster.
Pride in ownership is a great tool.
 

StevNimrod

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
343
Re: Marine repair shop....small business start up advice.

I'm going to cut a bit against the grain, but here goes...

The first concept that I think will help you is what's called the "opportunity cost" of your time. The simplest way I can think of to explain the concept is this - assume you can spend one hour working and you have to chose to work on A or B. The opportunity cost of working one hour on A? One hour of not working on B. This is important because everything costs something; in business there is no such thing as "free" time.

This is part of the reason I'm not a fan of formal business plan. What is often lost in the conversation is that the whole push behind a business plan started when it became a requirement if you were seeking external financing. So before I could reflexively say you need a business plan I would first need to know how many hours you would need to put it together, and what the return is - keeping in mind that we'd have to speak of your return as income you'd only see because you have a business plan. For the intended industry and not seeking external financing, I don't know many marine repair guys who can say that they took in an extra X dollars that only came in because they had a business plan. The other reason I hesitate on this, is that you often don't find the best path for your business until you actually start doing it. I can list quite a few popular companies (PayPal being one) that are currently involved in things that have nothing at all to do with the original plan for the business. I think if you have a good idea in your head of what you want to do, writing it down doesn't do much more but tell you things you already know.

I'm a fan of economists more than I am accountants. An accountant will be able to tell you how profitable your business was last year; an economist will be able to tell you how profitable your business could have been. This distinction becomes the difference between making profitable decisions, and making decisions that optimize profits. Not maximize, but optimize. An older gentleman once told me something about business I'll never forget, "pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered".

You can also apply similar logic to the need for a shop. I can't reflexively tell you that it's necessary. What I can tell you is that with some research, you'll get an idea of what it will cost you to get and operate a shop. You can then do some simple math to tell you how many hours you'd need to bill to break even on the shop alone. If your purpose in getting a shop is to warehouse parts, you don't necessarily need a shop - you need a warehouse. Point being, you can (and probably should) sit down and figure out if what you do is stuff that is impossible to do without having your own shop. What you'll almost always find is that you can get shop space on an as needed basis so you're only paying for what you need when you need it. This is one of the problems with space - no matter how much you have, you'll find a way to fill it with stuff you "need"; there will always be some deal you can't pass on. Just keep in mind that it cost money to carry inventory and it costs money when you have money tied up. A good hypothetical example is the project boat you got for $500, 10 years ago, at what you considered a steal. Had you taken that same money and invested 10 years ago at modest interest rate (8%) the value of the investment today would be over $1000 (not corrected for inflation). My point in this is that shops are full of projects that never happened and once you do the math you realize that many of these "deals" are anything but, especially if you get stuck with the stuff. If you're going to spend $20k yearly to maintain a shop - and it brings in 10k in revenue that you wouldn't possibly get if you didn't have the shop - then you can't very well justify the shop from a business perspective.

As far as pricing goes, it seems the current trend in the marine market is for a substantial portion of customers to treat labor as a commodity, which is to say that services are only differentiated by price. I think this is because there are a lot of project boats out there and people (usually unwittingly) think they can get into boating for cheap. If they have to pay for labor, they typically spend more money getting the project seaworthy than if they had just gone out and purchased a boat that already worked. At any rate, because of this dynamic a lot of people only shop by price. In my opinion, these are not the type of customer's you want to build your business around. There will always be someone willing to do work with a little less quality, at a slightly cheaper price. And to bring it full circle, from an economics standpoint you can make a compelling case as to why you don't want these people as customers. You first should understand that people are "indifferent" at certain price points, and also have a "reservation" price point. For indifference, consider that some of your customers who currently pay $25/hr will pay $90/hr and not consume less of your service. This is to say that they are indifferent as to whether you charge $25/hr or $90/hr, so why exactly (from a business perspective) would you not charge $90/hr? As for reservation price, it is simply the maximum amount a customer is willing to pay. You have to be somewhat careful setting up a business using reservation pricing because if you're $0.01 too high the customer will walk away. It is a useful concept to understand though, because it comes in handy when customers have special requirements (like they need you to fix their boat at 2 a.m. the morning before a major holiday) and your normal rate isn't fitting; this becomes the mechanism (if you're smooth about it) by which you first figure out how much they're willing to pay, then figure out if you're willing to do the work at that price point. In any case, I wouldn't run a business trying to set up pricing to keep customers I don't really want to keep from a business standpoint. Even if you moved your rate to $75/hr and lost 50% of your current customer base, you'd still be better off (1000 hrs @ $25/hr = $25,000 while 500 hrs @ $75/hr = $37,500). Actually you'd be better off on two fronts - time and money - as you'd have $12,500 of additional revenue and 500 hours of additional time.

This might be all academic at this point (and losing 50% of your customers may be pretty close to reality) because it's generally easier on customer relations to lower price rather than raise it. It's a bit like what people are starting to realize about Groupon - it's great if you're the consumer and want low pricing, but businesses are starting to realize that people who shop by price aren't typically going to come back and pay full price; so the exposure the business gets isn't really the kind of exposure it wants. Also, while we're on hourly rates, it may be that you go out of your way to not advertise one - it's one of the most meaningless pieces of information you can give a customer; unless they want an hour of your time because you're such a fun person to be around, they invariably want something fixed. Quote to that, not just what an hour of your time is worth - that will typically only be used against you. In some cases you are compelled to quote an hourly rate, and while you have some reservations about your experience, it's generally better to give a discount than it is to bill for the learning curve. This gets into a bit of consumer behavior, but people are less likely to scrutinize a bill when given a discount than they are when they see an entry for itemized labor where the hours might seem high (keeping in mind that customers often think they know how long stuff should take even if they've never done it before), so:

Watching paint dry:
1.1 hr @ $90/hr.
less 10%

reads better than:

Watching paint dry:
3.6 hr @ $25/hr.

Lastly, take customer input with a grain of salt; almost invariably the input will be some form of asking you to work for free. Which, given everything I've written, might be the number one thing I think is important to know when running a business - don't work for free. People will try to package it somehow to make it sound more appealing to you, but see it for what it is. You're going to have to do at least a bit of it, as customer service, but if it goes too far you'll spend all day on the phone or computer telling everybody how much progress you made since you talked to them the day before.
 

Leedanger

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
May 29, 2011
Messages
323
Re: Marine repair shop....small business start up advice.

Good Lord Bubba1235...you are a gentleman and a scholar.

Now with all that said, my situation is likely very different than your own in that we have real winter here, our population is on the low side meaning fewer boats and customers so I have to be a little bit of all things to all customers. If I were in a high population area that has boating year round I believe I would approach things differently and focus on a specialty where I could become the low cost provider and try and pick up contract work from existing marina's and boat dealers.

You can't sell yourself if you are busy hanging upside down changing an oil filter. What happens is you go out, sell a lot of work, get busy in the shop and stop selling, finish the back log and, no work in the shop so its back to trying to sell and you repeat the cycle again. (Peaks and valleys in income.)


No, I'm right there with ya,the Rocky Mnts tend to have a hell of a "real winter" for the most part ...lol. I've been fortunate this winter and not only had some projects I knew I could turn some coin on, but also several word of mouth referrals that have kept me busy. As for peaks and valleys I've already found me a said parts washer in mind that as far as I can tell won't steal from me and is looking for work. I'm starting to think that we are both the dummies here and your friend has got the right idea...lol
 

Leedanger

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
May 29, 2011
Messages
323
Re: Marine repair shop....small business start up advice.

I'm going to cut a bit against the grain, but here goes...


As far as pricing goes, it seems the current trend in the marine market is for a substantial portion of customers to treat labor as a commodity, which is to say that services are only differentiated by price. I think this is because there are a lot of project boats out there and people (usually unwittingly) think they can get into boating for cheap. If they have to pay for labor, they typically spend more money getting the project seaworthy than if they had just gone out and purchased a boat that already worked. At any rate, because of this dynamic a lot of people only shop by price. In my opinion, these are not the type of customer's you want to build your business around. There will always be someone willing to do work with a little less quality, at a slightly cheaper price. And to bring it full circle, from an economics standpoint you can make a compelling case as to why you don't want these people as customers. You first should understand that people are "indifferent" at certain price points, and also have a "reservation" price point. For indifference, consider that some of your customers who currently pay $25/hr will pay $90/hr and not consume less of your service. This is to say that they are indifferent as to whether you charge $25/hr or $90/hr, so why exactly (from a business perspective) would you not charge $90/hr? As for reservation price, it is simply the maximum amount a customer is willing to pay. You have to be somewhat careful setting up a business using reservation pricing because if you're $0.01 too high the customer will walk away. It is a useful concept to understand though, because it comes in handy when customers have special requirements (like they need you to fix their boat at 2 a.m. the morning before a major holiday) and your normal rate isn't fitting; this becomes the mechanism (if you're smooth about it) by which you first figure out how much they're willing to pay, then figure out if you're willing to do the work at that price point. In any case, I wouldn't run a business trying to set up pricing to keep customers I don't really want to keep from a business standpoint. Even if you moved your rate to $75/hr and lost 50% of your current customer base, you'd still be better off (1000 hrs @ $25/hr = $25,000 while 500 hrs @ $75/hr = $37,500). Actually you'd be better off on two fronts - time and money - as you'd have $12,500 of additional revenue and 500 hours of additional time.

Hey StevNimrod,

I don't think your really cutting against the grain really all that much. As it is we are all going to have different view points of "the best way a start up should run" and really in any view point all answers could in some direction be accurate. For me getting a shop would serve a personal purpose as well as a logistic one. For me it's the next step to legitimacy and I think it proves to my environment that I am dedicated to my cause. That said it's all valid points and none of which I will take lightly. The only counter pro vs. con that hasnt really been spoken for is the overwhelming demand for used parts. Now....this is SO problematic. There is huge demand for installing used parts..but at what risk? And this is where your coupon clipper customer theory totally applies. Do I really want to fill this niche...? That is a question I think I'm just gonna have to decide over time I suppose, I don't know if I have the asnwer to that one just yet.

It's a great argument about pricing you raise. To be honest,my pricing is set low based on initial guilt from lack of experience....trust me I make up for any lack of experience ten fold and absolutely get taken advantage of, as I should be if I allow it, and I know my work is solid. My thoughts were I just didn't want to charge folks premium prices to "pay for my education" if you will and while I do still lack some experience I will say this....I'm starting to realize most guys that claim to be marine experience are really not. Not that I'm done learning,SO far from it, but I've reached that point that I finally realized most guys don't know what the F*(k they are talking about. Your math works and I have a ton of food for thought. This is awesome and I always feel reinvigorated after reading everyones comments.
 

coastalrichard

Lieutenant
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
1,255
Re: Marine repair shop....small business start up advice.

Lee:

A couple more thoughts I want to offer:

I am ALWAYS asked (usually by the Mother of the Bride) a question that goes something like this: "What if something causes our plan to be altered by...(insert topic)? My answer is simple: You and I are the only two people who know what the plan is...nobody can possible know if the plan changes!

Translation: Your clients don't have any idea what you do and do not know!

I have a "shop" (actually a full commisary) on my property. My business is not "everyday" like a restaurant, rather it is only fully operational as needed for scheduled events; when I'm on, I'm on; when I'm not, I'm not. However, the overhead to keep the facility in an operational condition (as required by my regulators) is NOT off and on...it's ON 24/7. In fact, it costs very little more, incrementally, when fully operation (mostly power consumption).

Translation: The costs of providing the shop is 24/7, irregardless of your work volume. You have to charge a competive rate but it has to make sense for you, too.

When I discuss price and budgets with clients I always acknowledge their budget restrictions as a reality. But I also offer this question: "When is the last time you made a special trip to the gas station, inserted the nozzle and didn't pump gas?"

Translation: I have budgetary concerns as well and if this gig doesn't make sense for me...I'll stay on the couch and enjoy another rum!

Folks come to you and me for one thing - service. Why? Because they either cannot or will not do it for themselves!

I create, prepare and serve some of the finest foods of anyone in my area (and others!). I charge THE HIGHEST rates of other local providers. And I'm known for both!

A reputation for being professional will negate any question of your bill!

Best of Luck!
 

Leedanger

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
May 29, 2011
Messages
323
Re: Marine repair shop....small business start up advice.

Lee:

A couple more thoughts I want to offer:

I am ALWAYS asked (usually by the Mother of the Bride) a question that goes something like this: "What if something causes our plan to be altered by...(insert topic)? My answer is simple: You and I are the only two people who know what the plan is...nobody can possible know if the plan changes!

Translation: Your clients don't have any idea what you do and do not know!

I have a "shop" (actually a full commisary) on my property. My business is not "everyday" like a restaurant, rather it is only fully operational as needed for scheduled events; when I'm on, I'm on; when I'm not, I'm not. However, the overhead to keep the facility in an operational condition (as required by my regulators) is NOT off and on...it's ON 24/7. In fact, it costs very little more, incrementally, when fully operation (mostly power consumption).

Translation: The costs of providing the shop is 24/7, irregardless of your work volume. You have to charge a competive rate but it has to make sense for you, too.

When I discuss price and budgets with clients I always acknowledge their budget restrictions as a reality. But I also offer this question: "When is the last time you made a special trip to the gas station, inserted the nozzle and didn't pump gas?"

Translation: I have budgetary concerns as well and if this gig doesn't make sense for me...I'll stay on the couch and enjoy another rum!

Folks come to you and me for one thing - service. Why? Because they either cannot or will not do it for themselves!

I create, prepare and serve some of the finest foods of anyone in my area (and others!). I charge THE HIGHEST rates of other local providers. And I'm known for both!

A reputation for being professional will negate any question of your bill!

Best of Luck!

I love these little pep talks...seriously they are great. But no your right, I have been doing some Fake it to make it but I've yet to see anyone be the wiser and I'm certainly providing competitive service. Posting this topic was one of thebest moves I've made as far as raising the important questions and gaining a lil atta boy confidence. Best of luck to you as well.
 

Sandbank

Seaman
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
68
Re: Marine repair shop....small business start up advice.

Leedanger, my 2 cents worth for what its worth...
From acorns grow oak tress so dont be put off. Some things that may be beneficial:
an earlier thread spoke about incorporation. From someone with a legal background, this is gold advise, as even with business insurance as a non-company (business name only), your entire assets are at risk should you be sued and insurance may either not pay out if it was your fault or it may take years. (say you hit a rock and sink a boat worth major $$). Most lawyers will have a quick chat to you for free and also your accountant would be able to give you an opinion. Yes having a Company has its own disadvantages and you should consider the tax implications of it. It may not be all bad though, eg you can lease your garage to the company (if allowed in law) and therefore your lease is a before tax cost tax (look at the personal tax rates compared to company tax rates will assist you to set a rental figure).
Marketing and competition: the benefits of doing a business plan will include identifying your competition, what they charge and what they provide...historically taking on the competition on price alone rarely works in the long term (have a read of the book Blue Ocean Strategy). What is beneficial from your analysis is to ID a gap in the market and position yourself to fill this gap (be creative!).
Financial Planning:part of your costs analysis should be once you have established (or are comparing options) look at fixed and variable costs. This will assist you to assess profit margins. One model is that a profitability of 33% is OK (that is of revenue, a third goes to fixed and variable cost, 1/3 to wages and 1/3 to profit (so you can grow).
Creativity: Sorry I am not aware of your demographics or area layout but for instance, are there any marinas that have good numbers that dont provide the type of service ur offering. In these tough times businesses with floor space look to sublet to the most bizare uses (just have a look at you local mall!). You may be able to setup on their premises or build a temp workshop and thus have the advantages of in water testing, no towing, ready client base and a large storage boat yard area...
The majority of clients may be time poor, that is they dont have the time to arrange 6 jobs from different suppliers and cordinate them etc. If you can leverage your time (as per a previous post) be having some jobs done by others and charge a 15% overhead then it may enable you to provide a broader range of full quality services-depends on demand..once again what was your identified market size and likely market share from your business plan.
Whatever the path u take, make sure your personal assets are secure...please (if you go down the path of a company note the provisions on insolvent trading as they can expose you).
Its a minefield but an enjoyable one...Good luck
 

StevNimrod

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
343
Re: Marine repair shop....small business start up advice.

Your insurance agent, to the extent he deals with any commercial lines (which is likely), should be able to set you up with insurance. Last I checked, at least in Ohio, it was called "Marine Artisans" insurance. It's an entirely different animal than general business insurance because you're an entirely different risk profile - you may have to differentiate certain things like how much of your work is power vs. sail, mechanical vs. fiberglass, cosmetic vs. structural, etc. Your insurance will likely come from what's called an "excess and surplus" line, which many popular insurers offer and some insurers actually specialize in.

To put my comment about business plans into context a bit more; your two most important resources are generally time and money. So if spending 10 hours on a well-constructed formal business plan doesn't save you 10 hours down the road, what's the point in doing it? The idea must be in your head before you write it down, and what exactly do you gain by telling yourself what you already know? This is not to reflexively say that you shouldn't write a plan; rather, that you have to sit down and figure out if you'll break-even on your resource input (which in this case is time).

If you're getting into formal market research, keep a few points in mind. First, garbage in garbage out. Whenever you do research you're actually collecting data, not information. Information happens once the data is processed. Second, know what is and isn't a causal relationship. If you aren't careful, or don't have a research background, it's very easy to look at data (or information) and draw conclusions that aren't there. An example: a few years ago college recruiters were pressuring their universities for higher salaries. Invariably they had graphs showing that the number of applicants doubled (or in some cases tripled) and wanted exorbitant bonuses because they were bringing in a lot of extra money. Many universities bought it, and unfortunately didn't keep the receipt. As it turns out, the causal relationship was not between recruiting efforts and college applicants, rather it was between the economy and college applicants. In a declining economy, more people were going to school.

To add one tidbit to Sandbar's advice on cost analysis - wrap your brain around the concept that sunk costs must be completely ignored if you want to make good business decisions. The resource (be it money or time) is gone, using it to shape your current strategy will almost always result in you making the wrong decision. The is a distinction the professionals understand and it's why some people are always managing to make money no matter the conditions. Example: you borrow 100k from the bank to invest in this business and expect it to return 110k after two years. After one year you realize that you actually needed to borrow 120k (you forgot a 20k piece of equipment that is vital to your operations) to make this thing work so you go back to the bank asking for another 20k. The manager says "no" and his logic is that they've given you 100k and have nothing to show for it, so why on earth would they give you an additional 20k?!?! The reason is simple - giving you the extra 20k is the only way to make this thing work and it's the only way they're going to see a any returns from the first 100k. Sunk cost are just that: sunk.

Keep in mind that once you get your documentation back from the State, you are a bona fide business. That's what makes you legit. All owning a shop does is prove that you can own a shop. While there are certain benefits to a shop; my point was that you can actually sit down and do the math to figure out if it's a good decision. Shops cost money, and that money has to come from somewhere. For instance, if having a shop would let you bring in 10k/yr of income you currently can't get (as in literally impossible), then a shop would be a wise business decision if you paid less than 10k/yr to keep and maintain it. Keep in mind that in many places industrial space is almost given away, but the maintenance can make or break you (or curing deficiencies found during inspection). Ten years ago they were almost giving warehouses away here; if you're married to the idea of a shop it might be wise to see if you can find someone who has an entire warehouse they only use a small fraction of (I have a friend who continually tries to get me to rent a 15,000 sq. ft. wing of his warehouse for $1,000/mo, including two overhead cranes and a 14' door).

Yes, customers are paying for your education. They're also paying for your food, and your house, and your car, and your shop if you get one. That's just the nature of the relationship. I don't think customers have a problem paying more hours at a lower rate, considering your situation. The point I was making is that customers often associate price with value, and you really don't want to put yourself in a position where you've built a business around people who value your work at $25/hr. Why? Because once you get past the learning curve, they're still going to value your work at $25/hr. That's why I think it's much better to eat hours than it is to bill yourself low. The customer is still paying the same in total, you're still making the same in total, and now they at least value your work more (at $90/hr). I completely understand guilt, but make sure you go about dealing with it the right way (a way that doesn't involve cutting your own legs out from under you).

Yes, used parts is a delicate situation. The fundamental issue here, from my perspective, is how much you're willing to hang your reputation on someone else's parts. The problem is once you get involved in sourcing used parts, you're also getting involved in some of the liability if it doesn't work out. Customer's who deal with a lot of used parts are typically either really knowledgeable, or really cheap. You can generally tell the difference if you talk to them long enough, but the really cheap ones rarely turn out being customers you want to keep in the long run. You'll be fine, provided they understand that your time isn't free if they have to source the same used part multiple times before getting one that works. There is a lot of false economy when it comes to buying parts.

Unfortunately, when you're dealing with customers there are certain lines of reasoning that are true but you're forbidden from making. Boating isn't in everyone's financial best interest; and for some boating just isn't in the cards. Because there are so many cheap boats out there, a lot of people are trying to get on the water with no idea of how much of a financial commitment it is. Sometimes it's better to not explicitly have this conversation with a customer, but keep in mind that people will dump boats as "payment" for your services. I don't know about you, but I work for cash. I have enough projects for the year. So you have to be mindful here that if the value of your services starts to approach a certain percentage of the value of the boat, you might be wise to come up with some sort of payment structure that doesn't involve keeping your fingers crossed that they'll bother paying up when the job is done.

Finally, I think there are three things customers in this market pay a premium for: time, expertise, and speed. Everybody misses the part about speed. Around here, the season is six months long if you're a real die hard. There's a certain value in not having your boat tied up for eight weeks getting repaired (not because of parts, but because the guy "couldn't get to it"). And if you can master the art of efficient turnaround, you can likely name your price and never want for work.
 

Bamaman1

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
1,895
Re: Marine repair shop....small business start up advice.

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