Making Oil.-

Sea Rider

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Paul,

Would you say that all 4 strokes different brands OB's do "make oil", is this a Tohatsu sole issue, has to deal with environment temp fluctuations. Assume applies to all 4 strokes OB's as well ? If so, is it mentioned in Owner's or Service Manuals ?

Happy Boating
 

ondarvr

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It's a possible issue with just about every brand of 4 stroke outboard.
 

pvanv

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Luis,

All 4-stroke motors have some blow-by gases.

In the case of land-based motors, once up to operating temperatures, the crankcase temperatures are high enough to keep them vaporized. 50-some years ago, these gases were vented by a road draft tube, depositing crankcase vapor (including oil droplets) on the roads. After about 1960, the road draft tube system was replaced by the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) system, which draws those fumes into the intake manifold, resulting in them being burned.

In the case of outboards, crankcase temperatures are typically much lower, even though the combustion chamber temperatures are about the same as their land-based counterparts. Because of that, the fumes condense into liquids, resulting in a gain of fluid in the crankcase. This applies to all outboards from all manufacturers. 4-stroke outboards usually have a crankcase vent tube that ends near the intake, so vapors get drawn into the motor and burned. However, the condensed fumes still accumulate in the oil, resulting in "gaining" oil.

Oil gain is worst with high-viscosity oils, with synthetic oils, and at colder temperatures. To minimize (not eliminate) oil gain, run NMMA-certified type FC-W, non-synthetic oil, the lightest viscosity that the manufacturer recommends, and run the motor hot and hard. Prolonged idling contributes to oil gain. Operating in cold water also makes the oil gain worse.
 

bruceb58

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Oil gain is worst with high-viscosity oils, with synthetic oils, and at colder temperatures. To minimize (not eliminate) oil gain, run NMMA-certified type FC-W, non-synthetic oil, the lightest viscosity that the manufacturer recommends, and run the motor hot and hard. Prolonged idling contributes to oil gain. Operating in cold water also makes the oil gain worse.
Synthetic oil or viscosity has nothing to do with oil gain. If your engine has a thermostat and it is working properly, running in cold water also makes no difference.

The only issue I ever had with significant water in my crankcase was when my thermostat was stuck open .
 

Sea Rider

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Paul,

Very nice tech illustration as always. Don't plan switching to 4 strokes OB's any time soon, A friend of mine just purchased a brand Variable Cam 4 strokes 200 HP Yam, Yam techs have installed it, don't know oil used and if they are aware of this condition, are not that experts nor have huge experience with 4 strokes OB's though.

Our normal temp fluctuates from 12? to 25C? year round. Being 12 at winter and 20/25 at summer. So hotter environments making oil issue will be much less than at colder ones. What's the issue with any OB makig oil, that's working with higher oil level at crankcase. Will OB miss, have less performance, will develop plug, combustion issues, what precisely will happen ?

In a less making oil warmer scenario, would you still recommend filling just to 3/4 oil level ? This making oil issue, is it mentioned in Owner's Manual for owners and on Service Manuals for techs to be aware of ? Or was something discovered by mere accident. LOL!!

Happy Boating
 

bruceb58

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LOL...you don't fill a motor to 3/4 level. Where did you hear that? You can get condensation build up in a motor if the temp doesn't get to operating temp. It has little to do with the temperature of the water. When I got oil contamination in my oil it was running in 70?F water most of the year.

When I drained my oil this year it was the exact same level as it started the year. This was as opposed to the previous year where I had my stuck thermostat. I scanned my engine last year and it had an over cooling fault hence the need to look at the thermostat. I am now going to replace my thermostat every two years.

On muffs running cold city water, I scan my motor and it runs 135? which just happens to be the temp that the thermostat starts to open up at.
 
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Sea Rider

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There's 2 different boaters tech opinion on the subject which don't have any experience whatsoever as to add or comment about, that's why the post. Meanwhile will remain as a 2 smoker junkie till that's possible and locally permitted. LOL!!

Happy Boating
 

pvanv

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Synthetic oil or viscosity has nothing to do with oil gain. If your engine has a thermostat and it is working properly, running in cold water also makes no difference.

The only issue I ever had with significant water in my crankcase was when my thermostat was stuck open .
Incorrect. Yes, the thermostat is required, and helps warm up combustion chamber to proper temp quickly; without it, or if stuck open, lots of low-temp issues will show up. If actual liquid water appears in the crankcase, that is super-severe cold. However, the oil sump will indeed be colder when splashed with colder water. Certainly colder than a car's sump. Check it with an IR thermometer to confirm. Yes, synthetic oils do tend towards more oil gain; ditto for unnecessarily heavy oils.These last 2 items through experience only.
 

pvanv

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LOL...you don't fill a motor to 3/4 level. Where did you hear that? You can get condensation build up in a motor if the temp doesn't get to operating temp. It has little to do with the temperature of the water. When I got oil contamination in my oil it was running in 70?F water most of the year.

When I drained my oil this year it was the exact same level as it started the year. This was as opposed to the previous year where I had my stuck thermostat. I scanned my engine last year and it had an over cooling fault hence the need to look at the thermostat. I am now going to replace my thermostat every two years.

On muffs running cold city water, I scan my motor and it runs 135? which just happens to be the temp that the thermostat starts to open up at.

Yes, during break-in, Tohatsu motors are best filled to 3/4, since they will gain oil. If even a drop over full, many problems, including aeration and excess crankcase pressures happen. After fully broken-in (rings well seated), it is OK to fill near full.
Your rocker cover may get to 135F during warm-up, but it's guaranteed that the oil is cooler than that.
Warm-up is a lot longer in cold water. Period. Yes, the head may get warm reasonably fast, but the rest is not very warm for quite a while. Check it with an IR thermometer to confirm.
135 is too cold. Period. Fumes will definitely accumulate at those temperatures.
 

pvanv

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Luis,

Having the crankcase level "in the range" is plenty of oil for safety. Filling to the max is dangerous because of gain, and the resultant problems.
To my knowledge, oil gain is not mentioned in either owners or service manuals.
 

Sea Rider

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Yep, will not achieve same tech experience being a boater than being a boater & certified techie too. Thumbs Up for that dual experience.

Happy Boating
 

bruceb58

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Yes, synthetic oils do tend towards more oil gain; ditto for unnecessarily heavy oils.These last 2 items through experience only.
Interesting that both Mercury and Yamaha spec 25W40 semi synthetic oil. I think I will trust the manufacturer which in my case is Yamaha over you.

There is no chemical difference between synthetic and regular dino oil. It's made from the same base and synthetic just has more uniform molecule size. How can synthetic oil be worse in this case? In fact, the claims by Mercury are that the synthetic oils are actually better able to handle fuel dilution.

Typically, the oil temperature will be way higher than the coolant temperature if you run the motor for more than 30 minutes. The problems most people have are when they run their engine trolling for a long period of time and put their boat away right after doing so.
 
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Sea Rider

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Can't have an opinion about that as don't work or own 4 strokes OB's, but will ask my friend to check the dipstick level filled at max oil level on his Yam 200 before he changes oil for first time to check if what mentioned really happens taking in consideration that OB is working on hotter summer weather and consequently should not be making oil.

Happy Boating
 

km1125

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The temperature of the oil and the crankcase would definitely depend on how the water jackets are configured. On my engines, the water jackets and thermostat really only control the temperature of the head. The cold water entering at the base of the crankcase would keep that oil much cooler than it would in a typical 4 stroke (like a car engine).

I'm all for synthetic oil for all it's advantages. If it's a bit more susceptible to "making oil" that's Ok with me.. I'd just keep a closer eye on the level and not fill it full, as Paul suggests.
 
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