Making a system to monitor fuel/oil ratio.

[madgadget]

Hi all,

I thought I would let you in on a little project I have been working on. I want a way to measure and monitor the fuel/oil mix going into my mercury V6. I also want to try out an autoblend for another engine (DON'T SHOOT ME!) But I didn't want to do this without knowing what was going on.

I have been working on a bunch of sensors that react to the amount of oil present in fuel by monitoring the changes in the colour of the fuel (darker it gets the more oil etc)

I just got my first decent results from a test. At the moment thats all it is just an analogue voltage output that varies with oil ratio but check the graph below:

Left column is uV output from the sensor,
Bottom row is Fuel/oil ratio from 10:1 to 100:1.

These results were made using 200ml of fuel and oil added from a syringe. If I did a larger batch the results would be flat but were talking tiny amounts of oil here.

Plan now would be to use this output to feed a warning device/indicator to let you know if there is a problem!

Then I will/can know what is going on with the 2s oil going into my engine and not have to worry about the engine being killed !

 

[bkwapisz]

Re: Making a system to monitor fuel/oil ratio.

So is this an optical sensor of some sort?

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Making a system to monitor fuel/oil ratio.

I would take issue with using "color" as a guide to fuel/oil ratio. 1) various oils have different colors 2) weather can alter the color density of the oil, 3) moisture in small amounts in ethanol blended fuel can change its color. 4) amibient light can alter the reading of your sensors. 5) the transparency of the fuel line where measurement is taken would seemingly have to be kept clean. If you plan on integrating this into some sort of auto blend system and it becomes a control device, you are risking a fine engine on an experiment. As a warning device I think you are in for an annoying amount of warning horn/flashing lights. But -- continue with your experiment and let us know how it turns out. You may be onto the next million dollar idea. A far more useful method might be to actually monitor oil flow and fuel flow separately, running the numbers into a algorithm that calculates fuel/oil ratio. The nice part about that is could also be displayed along side engine rpm. While a true variable ratio oiler has a very high ratio (less oil) at idle and low rpm, it gradually switches to a lower ratio (more oil) at higher rpm. You now have an idea exactly how the engine is being lubricated across the rpm band. Even a fixed ratio oiler could benefit as you would be able to see a ratio change that might be caused by a failing pump (oil and/or fuel).

 

[madgadget]

Re: Making a system to monitor fuel/oil ratio.

Agree with all your last points. However I'm currently working on the KISS principle,

I have two sensors (optical) one pre and one post oil mix, this will compensate for fuel variables and simply leave a value purely affected by how much oil is in the mix. I am as I type taking measurements this time with 500ml of fuel. All the variables you speak of where possible I shall test and see what kind of influence it will have over the final results.

I am aware of the different colours. It would be necessary for the user to mix a known amount of oil and calibrate it. at say a 50:1 ratio, using their preferred brand.

It may not work but I shall post up my results once I have them shortly and let you know how I got on.

Sure in an ideal world I'd like to measure oil and fuel separately but its just not that piratical.

I am going to feed the output into a DAC and then write a program to drive a small LCD screen to display what is going on. It could be then displayed against engine load throttle position/rpm/map sensor or whatever.

I must admit I am VERY curious to see what happens.

 

[BeaufortTJustice]

Re: Making a system to monitor fuel/oil ratio.

Cool...I hope you've looked into the patent process by now...don't let someone else steal your idea. I just saw that movie about the guy who developed the intermittent rain wiper and your post reminded me of it. Good luck!

 

[mla2ofus]

Re: Making a system to monitor fuel/oil ratio.

I guess I'm too old fashioned, but I can't bring myself to bet a multi thousand $ engine against something electronic that may or may not do it's job due to a little glitch in a microchip. I don't own any thing w/ electronic oil injection, but I think I'd be hard pressed to trust it vs manual mix. Good luck on your invention and I hope it makes you lots of bucks.
Mike

 

[madgadget]

Re: Making a system to monitor fuel/oil ratio.

Right lol well my simple idea of using one sensor to cancel the other didn't work.. I need to buffer them first.

So I'm calling it a night for now

I will however update this thread as I get further along with the idea

As for patents etc, as nice as it would be to get rich from this haha I can dream eh

 

[madgadget]

Re: Making a system to monitor fuel/oil ratio.

I guess I'm too old fashioned, but I can't bring myself to bet a multi thousand $ engine against something electronic that may or may not do it's job due to a little glitch in a microchip. I don't own any thing w/ electronic oil injection, but I think I'd be hard pressed to trust it vs manual mix. Good luck on your invention and I hope it makes you lots of bucks.
Mike

It can be entirely analogue, with not a single logic chip insight. But these days we trust our lives to them with car ABS,Drive by wire etc. I'm happy that the technology is stable enough for my use. Besides I'd be the one programming it and I don't want to fry my engine just as much as anyone else's!!

 

[steelespike]

Re: Making a system to monitor fuel/oil ratio.

While present systems don't give a readout don't they monitor the mix,
or is it just oil flow?

 

[dingbat]

Re: Making a system to monitor fuel/oil ratio.

I guess I'm too old fashioned, but I can't bring myself to bet a multi thousand $ engine against something electronic that may or may not do it's job due to a little glitch in a microchip. I don't own any thing w/ electronic oil injection, but I think I'd be hard pressed to trust it vs manual mix. Good luck on your invention and I hope it makes you lots of bucks.
Mike

To error is human. I?ll take my chances with a microchip.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Making a system to monitor fuel/oil ratio.

There are all sorts of liquid flow rate sensors available on the market for commercial purposes. It would seem to me to be far more accurate to measure fuel flow rate, compare that with oil flow rate and instantaneously be able to determine whether mixture is correct for a given rpm.

 

[4JawChuck]

Re: Making a system to monitor fuel/oil ratio.

There are all sorts of liquid flow rate sensors available on the market for commercial purposes. It would seem to me to be far more accurate to measure fuel flow rate, compare that with oil flow rate and instantaneously be able to determine whether mixture is correct for a given rpm.

Thats how I would do it, far more reliable to measure flow rates than to estimate color?

 

[robert graham]

Re: Making a system to monitor fuel/oil ratio.

Seems like the best use for this would be to monitor the fuel for a given amount of oil by color or conductivity or whatever, and in the case of an interruption of oil, would shut down or cut back engine like in "safe mode" before engine becomes toast. I'll bet the Yamaha guys are reading this now and this "oil monitor" feature will appear on next year's models. Better call your patent lawyer fast! Good luck!

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Making a system to monitor fuel/oil ratio.

Do you really think the engine manufacturers have not already thought about this and decided it is not economically worth it. In the good old days, the electronics and sensors were not available to do this, and besides, everyone pre-mixed. Then came the first auto blend systems and electronics were still not available to make this a practical solution. Today, there are fewer two strokes being manufactured so it is likely not worth the design effort and besides there are other pump and flow rate devices on these ECU controlled engines to perform the same function. Now if you invented a super reliable aftermarket auto blend system for engines that never had it or as a replacement for those where the factory system has been disconnected or deemed unreliable, then yes there may be market. If it sold for the cost of an oil injection pump or about that, you would likely be able to retire a little early.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Making a system to monitor fuel/oil ratio.

You would need to calibrate it each time you bought new fuel and/or oil even if you used the same brand, as the color of each is not controlled close enough to be relied upon.

 

[madgadget]

Re: Making a system to monitor fuel/oil ratio.

lol @ you guys. I'm not saying my idea is the best or anything. If you can do better feel free, but I am more than happy with my results so far.

I am doing this for myself not anyone else I just thought I would share it here. I don't intend to market make or sell these, although I have had a few people show an interest.

Statements like the following are a perfect example of an assumption with no proof:

You would need to calibrate it each time you bought new fuel and/or oil even if you used the same brand, as the color of each is not controlled close enough to be relied upon.

I would hazard a guess that the colour of the oil is very consistent. I really doubt that oil companies have that much variance in their quality controls. But hey its not a problem since its so easy to account for, however since I am looking at this, I will find this out in due course.

Fuel quality is compensated for very easily as I have a pre and post mix sensor. The error value remaining can therefore only be caused by the oil mix.

I could go further (and I have not tried this yet) by putting a sensor in the oil tank too and using that as my oil calibration base then I have fuel and oil accounted for.

You know I could clearly measure the difference in output with only 0.2cc of oil mixed in 200ml of fuel: 100:1 (2ml oil) compared with 90:1 (2.22ml oil).

Show me any flow sensor that can do that.

I have just brought a bunch of components which should be with me in a few days so I can throw together a prototype of the electronics and free up my test gear to take other measurements

Hell if this does work the way it seems it will I don't nearly have enough money to protect the idea, but you'll all know where you saw the idea first, perhaps I should say all ideas and that otherwise a property of me. lol not that it would make the slightest bit of difference to the kind of corporations/people that like to steal ideas anyway...

BTW I considered other ways of measuring this, i.e. conductivity, capacitance etc but this one is what I am going with first...

 

[AguaSki]

Re: Making a system to monitor fuel/oil ratio.

I think I am going to fall in line with the skeptics on this idea, but I say go forward. A lot great things have been created in the garage. Capitalism keeps us motivated to find better ways of doing things. Just because I am skeptical along with most of the other posters does not mean you should stop. Yes, frying your motor is a possibility, but most great discoveries involve risk. As for me, I am not a risk taker. I am more comfortable in the armchair quarterback position where I can sit back and laugh at crazy ideas and say "I told you so" when the idea fails. Of course when you succeed, I will be opening my wallet to purchase some of that good idea. That is just the way I roll through life and I am fine with it. On the other hand I am glad there are others willing to take risks that I will not take. We need risk takers that are willing to do the things most people are skeptical about. I say go forward and keep at. In the end you may have the last laugh and get some of the money in my wallet.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Making a system to monitor fuel/oil ratio.

Its interesting that I have no proof. I work for a company the makes color controlled products from petroleum (oil) bases. There is a great deal of difference in each batch of everything we buy, even the pigments vary in color from batch to batch. We use very expensive computerized color eyes to adjust it, do you think oil companies do this with fuel and 2S oil?

2S oil is dyed and most of the companies that sell it, don't make it, plus its made in different plants around the country or world. Do you think each of these plants does exactly the same thing, or use the same suppliers?

I've seen fuel come out of the pump in various shades from clear to yellowish or amber.

If you were to put, or could identify a marker in the gas and oil that you track for each item and then control the production of the fuel and oil to ensure they were present in the correct amount, then yes you could determine the ratio easily with sensors.

Trusting the fuel and oil companies to add the same colorant to each product each time and then adjust the color when its off even a slight amount would be foolish. Gas is mass produced in the cheapest way possible and the color is not controlled in a way that would make it reliable.

 

[madgadget]

Re: Making a system to monitor fuel/oil ratio.

That is why I have a really nice easy way to calibrate it, so it becomes irrelevant.

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: Making a system to monitor fuel/oil ratio.

That is why I have a really nice easy way to calibrate it, so it becomes irrelevant.

If this is for your own personal pleasure then I support what you are doing 100%. Nothing was invented without any R&D and / or mistakes being made. Good Luck with your endeavors, I will watch and read with interest.

In the meantime I will be adding 1 gallon of TCW-3 2 stroke oil to 50 gallons of gasoline.

Ken