Loss of power at high RPMs Spirit (Suzuki) 85 horse.

[spirit85woes]

Hello all, first time forum user here, but I have been searching for quite some time, hoping to find an answer.<br /><br />I have a 79 Spirit (made by Suzuki) 85 horse outboard. Now, this boat was in storage for about 20 years, I took the carbs off, cleaned em good, made sure the float and needle were decent in each carb, and hooked the linkage back up. I also blew out the fuel lines, cleaned the tank, replaced the squeeze bulb, took apart fuel pump cleaned, and made sure no diaphram cracks or anything, replaced lower end unit fluid and such.<br /><br />The problem, It starts, and idles pretty good. I give it the hammer, and it comes right up and planes out nice for about 3 minutes, then it seems to drop about 3000 RPMS and just struggles to stay running. It seems to be getting fuel, I squeezed the bulb and that didnt make any difference. No Carb overflow leakage, and it doesnt seem to be sucking air. I made sure the tank vent was open, still doing this.<br /><br />Water is squirting out the port in the lower unit, and the cylinder walls seem a little warm to the touch, but not extremly hot or anything. If I shut the boat off a few minutes, it will plane out again and high speed, but then after trimming it up a hair and getting a good plane, she will dog out. All 3 plugs are getting good spark when I checked at an idle.<br /><br />Top and bottom carb lean/rich adjustment screws were 2 and 1/2 turns out, and the middle carb was 5 turns out. I set all carbs at the same setting 2 and 1/2 turns out. Still dogs out.<br /><br />Last night It got a little dark out, and a bit cooler, and the boat ran like a banshee, no dogging out. Took it out today, same deal... runs good for a few minutes on plane at high speed, then just dogs out completely until I turn it off a few minutes. <br /><br />I dont have an instruction manual for this motor, and cant find much on the net. Is it possible that the 3 coils need to be replaced? or is it possible this motor is overheating, does it have a thermostat? can the motor impeller be taking in water, but not circulating it to the block?<br /><br />I could have swore it was a fuel thing, but I have had these carbs apart a few times to clean them completely. They are Mikuni carbs, but I cannot find a refrence number on them anywhere, or any Spirit info to figure out which model carb these are, and where to find a rebuild kit.<br /><br />If you have any experience with this motor, or have a general idea of what my problem might be, please respond.<br /><br />Thanks in advance, you guys and gals are great!<br /><br />Tim

 

[31900]

Re: Loss of power at high RPMs Spirit (Suzuki) 85 horse.

Tim<br />I dont know this motor but you haven't mentioned servicing the lower end or the water pump. It is likely that you are over heating due to a faulty impeller and that the motor protection setup is kicking in reducing the revs and so saving your motor. Are there any alarms? Water pumps should be serviced at least every 2 years used or not.

 

[spirit85woes]

Re: Loss of power at high RPMs Spirit (Suzuki) 85 horse.

Thanks Adam, this motor sat for a good 20 years, it is shooting water out the lower unit port, does that mean the water pump is working? there is no alarm, but I also suspected that it's possible the motor was protecting itself from overheating/seizing...<br /><br />Hrmm it's a Spirit 85hp model 8501 I'll look hopefully I can find a new water pump/impeller. Parts seem to be scarce.

 

[Whatnow]

Re: Loss of power at high RPMs Spirit (Suzuki) 85 horse.

G,Day Tim, I have the 1995 version heres a few points I have noted while the engine is running great. You can hold your finger near the centre spark plug for up to 7 seconds to see how hot it's getting. And the top and bottom hold your finger there for a lot longer. the water discharge pipe (on the right hand side not the water gas vent in the middle) will allow 500ml to flow out in 30 seconds at 1500 rpm. I think your motor is over heating! and would pull out the thermostat and replace, also see how much salt build up and crud inside, should be none. and replace the water pump Kit less than $50.00

 

[31900]

Re: Loss of power at high RPMs Spirit (Suzuki) 85 horse.

With a stream from the pee hole it indicates that the water pump is working. <br />The question is how well. The impeller is made of a rubber compound and I would expect that after 20 years it won't be in prime condition. It could easily be breaking up and lodging particles that could block the flow. It needs changing now and I suggest by a pro this time who can also check your thermostats as whatnow rightly suggests. If you intend to work on it yourself, don't unless you have a manual and oxy to loosen the bolts. Without it you will probably break some.

 

[jim dozier]

Re: Loss of power at high RPMs Spirit (Suzuki) 85 horse.

I believe that those 3 cylinder 85 hp engines were maxed out on their cooling capacity when everything is new and working right. A 20 year old impeller is 18 years past its retirement. You need to replace the impeller, check the impeller housing and replace if necessary, and test the thermostat for opening temp and replace if necessary. An after market temp gage would be a good idea when you get it running right.

 

[spirit85woes]

Re: Loss of power at high RPMs Spirit (Suzuki) 85 horse.

Thanks for all the responses guys. Now that I think of it, and you guys mention it, the middle port (the exaust I think) sputs out water, but I dont recall seeing any steady stream coming out of a pee hole. I am going to try to track down someone who can get parts for this thing, and take it in.

 

[Whatnow]

Re: Loss of power at high RPMs Spirit (Suzuki) 85 horse.

HI Tim, yes the water pump is most likely dust. But the pee hole is very small in diameter 2mm and gets blocked easily, clean out with some fishing line or similar. I don't know your plans for the motor but Jimd is right about the early models, Suzuki DT 85 over heating the problem is the head gasket covering some of the water passages, replace with the later models no more problem. also I would think the fuel pump diaghram would be on it's last few pumps aswell. parts list,prices and diagrams <br />www brownspointmarine will give you an idea.

 

[spirit85woes]

Re: Loss of power at high RPMs Spirit (Suzuki) 85 horse.

I talked to Paul at Brownspoint Marine, he was super helpful. He is sending me a new water pump kit/impeller. At 43 bucks I think that is a heck of a deal, and he even told me how to get at the old one and install the new equip. Got a new thermostat also, thanks for the heads up on that Jimd.<br /><br />I'll try to find the pee hole on this motor, and will clean it out, thanks for the tip on the hole Whatnow.<br /><br />Paul sais that this motor has a sensor over the cylinder that will kick in if the motor is running hot, this saves the motor from blowin up. He knew pretty much exactly the problem I had, and recognized the symptoms with this motor. <br /><br />After I get the parts in a few days, I will run it and let you guys know how things turned out. I cant wait until I can see the pump and impeller to see how bad it is. <br /><br />I am going to wait though until the parts arrive before I tear it apart. Besides, I need to get some metric sockets before I do this, most of my tools are SAE.<br /><br />Thanks again for the responses guys, this forum is a lifesaver.<br /><br />Tim

 

[jim dozier]

Re: Loss of power at high RPMs Spirit (Suzuki) 85 horse.

While your at the store pickup a propane torch. You will probably have to heat the aluminum around the bolt threads to get some of the bolts out.

 

[spirit85woes]

Re: Loss of power at high RPMs Spirit (Suzuki) 85 horse.

Okay,<br /><br />Unhooked shifter linkage under carb, and removed lower unit. Old impeller was rotten bad, and several nibs from the old impeller were suckedc up into the water pipe. All nibs were accounted for, blew pipes and water journals out, and put back together.<br /><br />Shifter linkage was a horror to get back into place under carb, but we did it. We made sure not to move linkage rod when replacing impeller, but did have to wiggle prop a little to get the water pump drive splines to line up with the block when we put lower unit back on.<br /><br />Here's the problem now, on the trailer (havent tested in water yet) when shift lever works great going into foward, and back to nuetral, but when going into reverse, it's a bit stiff. Then, the shifter locks completely. I unhooked shifter cable, and am able to adjust linkage arm manually from forward to nuetral, then with a little turn on the prop, into reverse. Shifter cable is still totally locked even off the motor, and I have to really push in on the linkage ball, for the shifter linkage to telescope back up, and un stick itself. <br /><br />Made sure again that I was able to shift manually on the motor, put motor in nuetral, then shifter in neutral... then attach linkage again. The linkage on the motor is in the 12:00 position, when all is in neutral. Forward is good, reverse makes it lock up tight, I mean tight like mechanically tight, as if you put a vise grips on the telescoping shifter linkage.<br /><br />Any ideas? is this just coincidence? Or is something wrong with the way I put linkage pin back in under carb. Seems like there is only one way to put it, with the peg going into the linkage hole..... where you put the nut back on the pin is slotted, and the linkage can only go back on pin one way that I Can see.<br /><br />What is the black turn screw on the front of the shifter box by the way?<br /> <br />Thank in advance for the replies!<br />Tim

 

[bossee]

Re: Loss of power at high RPMs Spirit (Suzuki) 85 horse.

Hi,<br />Black screw is probably for adjusting the tension of the shift lever. It is described in the user's manual if You have that.<br />I suggest You open the shifter (control) box and check that all is moving freely in there also.<br /><br />It is very important the shift rod in the outboard that goes down in the lower unit did not come loose when You changed impeller but it seems You where careful so it is probably OK.<br /><br />My best guess is that You should buy a pair of new cables, like Teleflex cables for Your Suzuki. I changed cables on my Suzuki DT 65 (1991) I had before and it was really needed and all was much easier to shift forward and reverse after that. Just measure how long Your present cables are and buy new in same length for Your Suzuki.<br /><br />Picture of my DT65 I had before:<br />

<br /><br />Good luck.

 

[jim dozier]

Re: Loss of power at high RPMs Spirit (Suzuki) 85 horse.

Sounds to me like you need new cables. Did I understand you correctly that when the cables are off of the engine the shift lever in the cockpit is stiff and the linkage arm on the engine (now disconnected from the cable) works OK?

 

[spirit85woes]

Re: Loss of power at high RPMs Spirit (Suzuki) 85 horse.

Hi guys, I opened the shift lever box, and there was some broken metal pieces in there, that was jamming the shifter. I took the broken metal pieces that affected reverse throttle out of the shift box.<br /><br />I will someday need a new box.. I can shift in reverse, but I can only go to half throttle in reverse, before it jams.<br /><br />Money is a bit tight, so I drilled and tapped a hole in the box and put a bolt in there as a stopper so that in reverse, you cant pull the shifter all the way back. It shifts into reverse fine and bottoms out against the stopper I made, and it goes about 5 miles an hour in reverse. Forward and neutral are smooth as butter all the way to WOT.<br /><br />It's not like I back up all that fast to begin with.<br /><br />Getting back to the motor, took it out today since the impellor change and new thermostat. It ran good for a few minutes, then lost power for about 5 secs, then gradually regained full power after about 30 secs. I am thinking the thermostat kicked in. When I replaced the thermostat, the socket and water journal around it was bone dry. After that motor ran pretty decent, no more loss of power.<br /><br />I did adjust the rich/lean screws on the carbs. My Brother had them turned out 3 turns, and top end was decent, but holeshot was very sluggish. We tightened them screws up all the way, then backed them out about 1 and 1/4 turn each and I seem to have found a balance of good holeshot, and good top end speed. <br /><br />Unfortunately, the boat doesnt have a tach, so I cant tell if the RPM's are optimal on plane, but it seems to move along around 45 mph that I can tell. <br /><br />It's a 17 foot fiberglass bassboat, 85 horse motor, standard 3 blade factory prop. On tight turns it seems to slow a hair, but Im not too worried about it. We put a good 5 miles on the boat today at open throttle and no shutdowns, or dogging. I am thinking the new impellor and thermostat, once it got water around them cylinders was a success. <br /><br />This motor hadnt been run in 20 years, thankfully though it was stored in a heated garage for all these years, and you would think this 79 Charger bass boat just came off the showroom floor. I am hoping that with use and a few tankfuls of gas, she will just run better and better. <br /><br />Anyone know a good starting point on them lean/rich screws in the front of the carb? How many turns out? I have a manual coming in the mail for the DT85 which from what I understand, is basically the same engine as the Spirit 85 but it will take some time for the manual to arrive, and I am going to the lake tomarrow <br /><br />Thanks again guys. Though I used to work for Cruiser Yachts building 33 footers, I never got much experience with outboard motors. Knowing now about impeller rot, and overheating saved my engine. I have learned so much about outboards since I started reading this board, that I can say now I am an addict. <br /><br />Tim

 

[jim dozier]

Re: Loss of power at high RPMs Spirit (Suzuki) 85 horse.

I don't remember the exact number of turns for my old DT85 but I think it was about 1.25-1.75 turns out for the idle air screw. If the spirit has the same Mikuni carbs as the DT85 you need to know that the idle air screw turns in to enrichen (reduces the amount of air mixed with fuel in the circuit) the idle mixture. The idle air screw should have no effect on mid to top speed but may affect the transition from idle to speed.

 

[Buckeye-Basser]

Re: Loss of power at high RPMs Spirit (Suzuki) 85 horse.

I am having these exact same problems with a DT150 Super Six. The difference is I am getting a steady pee stream. Would it most likely be the thermostats? There are two on this motor. Is there any way to test them. I have changed fuel filters and rebuilt the carbs because I thought it was a fuel problem.

 

[bossee]

Re: Loss of power at high RPMs Spirit (Suzuki) 85 horse.

Test thermostats in a pot of hot water with a tempguage in the hot water. Hang the thermostat in a wire in the hot water and see if it open at the stamped temp on the thermostat.

 

[Buckeye-Basser]

Re: Loss of power at high RPMs Spirit (Suzuki) 85 horse.

Thermostats work fine, Could the water pump be bad and still have a steady stream of water. Its not a super hard stream of water like you see on these new outboards, but steady.

 

[bossee]

Re: Loss of power at high RPMs Spirit (Suzuki) 85 horse.

Buckeye-Basser,<br />When was last time the impeller including gaskets (and rubber seals on the water pipe that goes from impeller up in powerhead) was changed?<br /><br />Do You have a heat sensor as a "heat sensing switch" or as a "water level switch"? (alarm sensor for overheat)<br />It could be defect but probably not. The overheat alarm should go ON if it is overheating.<br /><br />Maybe best to start a new subject with our outboard describing your outboard, symptom(s) and what you have done so far (and not done).

 

[Buckeye-Basser]

Re: Loss of power at high RPMs Spirit (Suzuki) 85 horse.

No alarm. Dont know when impeller was changed last, just got the boat. I'm just lossing the RPMs at full throttle like this origional post.