Is there never an end to it - AARRGGHH!

[CRT Skiff Crafter]

Hello fellow boat folks.<br /><br />Well, I took the old Skiff Craft (888 Mercruiser, Ford 302) up to Erie Wednesday night. Couldn't put in till Thursday as there was a full gale in effect. Thursday was a lot better so I eventually headed out to Put-In-Bay. The island was like a ghost town (kinda cool really) and I had a terrific dinner at Lad's.<br /><br />Made the return trip in the dark. Boat ran fantastic both out and back. Better than it ever has since I've owned it. However, when I hit the mouth of East Harbor and I went down to idle speed, the engine died. I changed fuel tanks and the engine started right up and ran for a little than died again. I restarted with no problem, but as soon as I tried to put it in gear the engine quit. <br /><br />I took a look for anything obvious and saw nothing unusual. Now I'm stuck in the channel and can't get the blasted thing in gear without killing the engine. Even tried reverse with the same result. <br /><br />I was getting pretty desperate so I attempted to start the engine with the drive already engaged. <br />Fortunately, it started and would run in gear at idle, but would take no more throttle without dying. So I was able to cripple it in this way. <br /><br />This morning I had the marina service manager have a look and a listen. With it secured to the dock, we started it and put in gear and it did not die. We tried this several times and it seemed just fine. So we listened to the gear housing, moved the drive from right to left and again everything seemed OK. <br /><br />Well the weather was going to get crappy and stay that way for the next week, so I decided to come home. When I drove the boat over to the launch ramp, it started doing this again. I barely got it there.<br /><br />As most of you know, this engine has new timing gears & chain, breakerless distributor, plugs, plug wires, coil, carb rebuild and it was running like a champ. Before I left for Erie, I had a gimbal bearing put in. And I did fill up with gas at the marina at Erie. <br /><br />The engine starts perfectly and will take throttle as long as it is not in gear. Put it in gear and it get's very unhappy. I have never experienced any symptoms like this. <br /><br />What I'm wondering now: Bad gas? Distributor (timing advance)issue? Did something happen during the gimbal bearing install that put a bind on something else? Low grease in the drive? <br /><br />Help me I'm drowning - glug, glug...<br /><br />Regards, crt

 

[snapperbait]

Re: Is there never an end to it - AARRGGHH!

Engine stalls under a load... Choke sticking closed?<br /><br />Notice any excessive fuel consumption or black smoke?

 

[cobra 3.0]

Re: Is there never an end to it - AARRGGHH!

Fuel filters clogged?

 

[Bondo]

Re: Is there never an end to it - AARRGGHH!

Engine stalls going Into gear.. <br />Bad Lower Shift Cable ?????

 

[CRT Skiff Crafter]

Re: Is there never an end to it - AARRGGHH!

Thanks snapperbait, cobra 3.0 & bondo. Places to start. I wonder if the shift cable was hosed during the gimbal bearing change?<br /><br />I'll start checking some stuff out this morning and post again.<br /><br />Regards, crt.

 

[andrewgroup]

Re: Is there never an end to it - AARRGGHH!

A fuel pressure gauge is a very important tool to have. The three rules of internal combustion engines are Fuel, Spark and Air. Barring any mechanical problems you need to focus your attention of this stuff. I've equipped my boats with a Brass T near the Carb with a 1/8" plug in the hole where I install the fuel pressure gauge.<br /><br />My tune-ups include documenting what the pressure is on a regular basis. After changing the larger filter / separator and the brass carb filter. I've keep the guage in for runs on the LAKE to document running pressures.<br /><br />Problem I have seen similar to this...are: Fuel Tank Pickup, Metal Fuel Tank Rusting, (gas looked like a tomato drink). Carb float saturated with fuel. The obvious fuel filters.<br /><br />Going out on a limb, let's look at the electrical system. Is it charging well while idling? Are the belts tight, Does the shift assist assembly work properly when manually engaged? Can you disable the shift assist and try it? (removing shift assist wire from coil) Battery posts nice and clean. all connections tight....<br /><br />A good cleaning of the spark arrestor is about all I can contribute today.<br /><br />good luck, let us know..

 

[CRT Skiff Crafter]

Re: Is there never an end to it - AARRGGHH!

Andrew T: Excellent post. <br /><br />I was just out messing with it (on the garden hose) and none of the symptoms appeared. I can shift into gears and give it throttle with no issues. However, I realize this is not under load, which could produce different results. <br /><br />This is sort of what happened yesterday when a marina service manager and I checked it out. Tied to the dock, we could put it in forward or reverse and give it some throttle with no issues. As soon as I got 10 feet from the dock, it died again and I had to cripple it to the launch ramp at idle and it was still dying ocassionally. <br /><br />I was just looking at the shift assist switches and I can kill the engine by actuating one of them, the other doesn't seem to be working at all? <br /><br />Electrical system is fine. Good charging. <br /><br />Ignition system is all new - plugs & wires, distributor, coil. <br /><br />I also checked fuel level in at the bowl site hole and it was on the money. I do need to check the fuel situation. I have suspected something wrong there for a while. However, I recently did the fuel gauge test which was fine and also drained off all old fuel and changed water/fuel filter. Also rebuilt carb.<br /><br />I did gas up at the marina Thursday and the problem appeared when one tank got low. It's now running on the other tank. However, when the problem first appeared, I switched tanks and it made no difference. Of course something could have been going through the line. I well may have water in the fuel.<br /><br />I'll pull the water/fuel separator and look at the fuel.<br /><br />Thanks for all the input. I'll get after it and will post when I get somewhere.<br /><br />Regards, crt.

 

[CRT Skiff Crafter]

Re: Is there never an end to it - AARRGGHH!

Here's the latest:<br /> <br />Well, l messed around with the engine, checked a bunch of stuff and found one of the wires on the assist switch was not plugged into the terminal block. I of course fixed that immediately. This certainly could have been a problem. Perhaps it was shorting the coil enough to make the spark too weak to run under load, although that would really be streching it a bit I think. <br /><br />I also pulled the water/fuel separator just to look for any weirdness, which didn't show anything unusual. The fuel looked like fuel. No tomato juice and no salad dressing. By the way, I did install a new w/f separator.<br /><br />I ran it on the hose for a while and it seemed to be running fine so I took it over to my local test lake and backed the trailer in the water, left the boat on it and ran it in gear (like a dynamometer) and it ran fine. So I decided to be brave and take it out and run the heck out of it. As I was launching, I spoke with a couple of fishermen in a small vintage aluminum boat and told them about my engine problems and they said they'd keep an eye out for me in case I got stuck, so I was feeling pretty safe. <br /> <br />Turns out the thing ran perfect. All I can figure is that it was something with that shift assit circuit, or there is some intermittent restriction in the fuel system before the fuel pump. Maybe some debris lives in the tank (tanks) and it was stirred up on the Put-In-Bay trip, which was kind of rough both out and back. Then again, maybe something was actually trapped in the filter and the filter change fixed it. <br /><br />I don't need to tell any of you that an intermittent problem like this is really hard to nail down. It's also dangerous because just when you get that false sense of security, it rears it's head. <br /><br />I'm pretty much stumped about this and don't know what I should be thinking about next. I suppose I should pull the tanks this winter and have a look. I think I might go ahead and plumb a fuel pressure gauge in the system this winter as well.<br /> <br />I was hoping to get one more trip out of it before winterization, but I really don't know if it's reliable. Guess I could keep a supply of water/fuel separators on board and roll the dice!<br /><br />Well, that's about it I guess. If anyone has further suggestions, it would be appreciated. <br /><br />Regards, crt.

 

[P.V.]

Re: Is there never an end to it - AARRGGHH!

Suggest you remove the top cover on the outdrive. 4 screws and you'll be able to see the upper input and drive gear and oil level... If anything is NFG... You'll know when you open it up!!!

 

[cjflanagan]

Re: Is there never an end to it - AARRGGHH!

I'm almost certain that I know what the problem is. When I bought my boat it would shut off just like that but when I went into reverse. As long as I just enguaged it it would be fine. The second I gave it any gas however, it would die, and I should add that it died at the exact throttle position and RPM every single time. I adjusted the shift linkages so that the "blip" which alows the transmission workings (for lack of better term) to enguage fit at the top of the reverse "enguage". Problem solved never had a lick of trouble since....

 

[andrewgroup]

Re: Is there never an end to it - AARRGGHH!

Always nice to hear progress is being made.<br /><br />Being in the Informations Systems Business (Puter Stuff) for the last 20+ years I've developed a basic philosophy about troubleshooting and it applys to the boats I've owned.<br /><br />My 2 rules;<br />"Only ask yourself questions you can answer."<br />"What can I eliminate with 100% assurance."<br /><br />This means, ask "what is working" not "What isn't"<br />and anytime you can eliminate a possible problem, take advantage of this and measure the results. Eliminating those pesky shift assemply circuits is an easy thing to do.<br /><br />Having enough documentation of the working system will go along way in the future, this helps to confirm that things are working. Knowing what your fuel pressure should be. Knowing what the voltage reading are at various connector points when starting, running, etc... Measuring the voltage drops across battery leads from + to starter. Resistance will build up in these wires over time and they will haunt you in the future.<br />Compression Checks on file, Vacuum Gauge readings are all important to know in benchmarking your engine when it's running O.K. Gee, I'm really ANAL about this, I've video taped some of this for safe keeping. Better to have it and not need it.<br /><br />My boats are put up for the Long Cold Winter....Boo.

 

[CRT Skiff Crafter]

Re: Is there never an end to it - AARRGGHH!

Hi all. Thanks for the new posts!<br /><br />P.V: Pulled the lid, it's all good. WHEW!<br /><br />cjflanagan: I also believe the shift assist was the culprit. After securing the wiring, the problem went away - at least for now...<br /><br />Andrew T.: Kindred spirits! I too was in the IT business for 20 plus years. Till April of this year I was employed by a very large utility company and my entire group was clobbered. Don't think I'm going back to that world anymore. However, like you I tend to be extremely methodical about my approach to problem identification and solution. Stripping away the obvious layers, always trying to take the most logical approach and documenting everything to the hilt! <br /><br />I've spent a lot of time doing everything but engine and sterndrive repairs on my rig. Now that I've got the rest of the boat together, the power train wants it's time! It had been a long while since I'd done any significant wrenching so i was really not in the right mode. I'm so pleased to have found this forum. All of the great advice and camaraderie have helped immeasurably. Now that I've got the engine running as it should be, it's freezing out there!<br />However, I'm not ready to put it away just yet! I'm betting we're gonna get one more good week. That's 6 days on boating and 1 day of winterizing!<br /><br />Thanks and regards to all, crt.

 

[Norm Malcosky]

Re: Is there never an end to it - AARRGGHH!

CRT,<br /><br />Glad to hear your Skiff Craft is finally running to your satisfaction. It was a long struggle, but you prevailed. Kudos !!<br /><br />I am also looking forward to "one more week" of summer and plan on a final Lake Erie trip that will also include a Put-in-Bay trip. Weatherman say next week will be Indian Summer in Ohio - so get out and enjoy it. Don't forget that next weekend (Oct 12 & 13?) is OctoberFest at PIB. A great time w/great food, adult beverages, and loud German music.<br /><br />erie_guy

 

[CRT Skiff Crafter]

Re: Is there never an end to it - AARRGGHH!

Thanks erie_guy!<br /><br />I hope your right about the weather next week! I have to be here through Wednesday morning, but I'm thinking I'll head up to Erie around 11:00 AM on Wed. Don't know what your time looks like, but perhaps we can hook up. <br /><br />I definitely want to get a little more out of this season since I spent the bulk of it in dry dock with every manner of tool in my hand. Gotta take it while we can ...<br /><br />Regards, crt.