Is there a roofer in the house? HELP!!!

[dhud64]

Is there a roofer in the house?<br /><br />My mom-in law had a new roof put on a couple of years ago and has had problems every since. But cannot get the roofing company to take the blame for the problems. <br />During a hard rain her roof will leak. (Now this is an obvious roof problem, but has not been addressed). Most recently, after an ice storm, part of her ceiling fell in, a couple of electrical outlets stopped working etc… After a short inspection, I found that in about 2/3 of the attic the entire under side of the new decking is wet and ‘dripping’, with what appears to be condensation. In the other 1/3 the ‘condensation’ is in frost form and small icecicles hanging from all protruding nails. This is a small ranch style home with original gable vents on the north and south ends. The insulation is now soaking wet, and more problems are bound to come.<br /><br />The roofing company installed new roof vents and even soffet (?) vents that had never been there in the 40-50 year life of the house. When mom-in law began to complain about her ceiling becoming discolored, they always said it’s a condensation problem….. Well that is NOW obvious, but why did this just start with a NEW roof? The roofing company also said it could be from a lack of insulation in the attic…BS, there are 2 layers of insulation there, that until it got wet, it was ample. There also are saying she may need to install a power vent. BS, why did all this start with a new roof, and how can it be corrected???<br /><br />The insurance man says he’s never seen anything like this in the 30 some years he’s been a claims adjuster. He and I looked at roof and found exposed nail heads on the vent flashings, and it also looks like they tried to use caulking to seal where the shingles meet the valley flashings? (There are gaps in this caulking, which is probably part of the reason the roof leaks in hard rain). Also they did not install tar around the stack where the water heater vents out.<br /><br />I did place a box fan to try and exhaust the moisture through the original gable vent on the north end of the house. (This was adjusters recommendation). <br /><br />If any roofer can decipher my jibberish and reply in laymens terms it would be much appreciated. We’re waiting on a roofer that works with the insurance company to look at it but that will be next week. It now sounds as if the roofing company is willing to help, but we don’t know what and how they should fix it, apparently they don’t know either!!!

 

[Paul Moir]

Re: Is there a roofer in the house? HELP!!!

I'm certainly no expert here, but a humid attic is often caused by a leaking roof. If possible, get a video camera and wait for a rainy day. Focus your search on the section where the ceiling collapsed.<br /><br />I think too many people here are seeing the symptom, not the cause. Mind you, if you blow enough air through the attic even a leaky roof will appear tight...

 

[flashback]

Re: Is there a roofer in the house? HELP!!!

DHud64, Im no pro but Ive been in construction 30 years, and have never seen water form on the back side of the decking. warm moist air could possibly condense on the back side of the cold decking but that warm air would have to come from some where inside the house such as a bathroom exhaust fan, or maybe a water heater stack. my gut feeling is it is just a leaky roof due to a shoddy job.. good luck and let us know what you find out...as far as the wet insulation, the best thing you could do is remove it before it gets mold in it. not a good thing as the mold can make you sick.......

 

[Bass Man Bruce]

Re: Is there a roofer in the house? HELP!!!

Water on the bottom side of roof decking is very common in a poorly vented attic. My folks old house looked like it was raining inside in the winter! (5 sisters takimg hour long showers every day).<br /><br /> Check to make sure all vents are clear and not just nailed down over the roofing, Ive actually seen this. You should have one square foot of vent for every 150 square feet of attic. Half that if half of vent is at soffits and rest is ridge vented. Make sure no bath vents exhaust into the attic.<br /><br />On a clear day, drag a garden hose up on the roof, and check all likely leaks (valleys, penetrations, intersections with walls etc.) while someone checks inside the attic for leaks. <br /><br />There should be a 3' wide layer of rolled roofing under the shingles in the valley with metal flashing under that. That there would be any calk there makes no sense. Good Luck!

 

[dhud64]

Re: Is there a roofer in the house? HELP!!!

Thanks everyone. There is nothing venting into the attic. The only "heat" source would be from the exhaust stacks on the furnace and water heater where they pass through...

 

[Bass Man Bruce]

Re: Is there a roofer in the house? HELP!!!

dhud64, I don't know where your at, but here in Mich. your entire house would be a major heat source this time of year due to your wet insulation. I have to agreee with flashback on the cause from what is in your post, but obviously long distance diagnisis is not exactly bullet proof.

 

[ED21]

Re: Is there a roofer in the house? HELP!!!

I have to disagree a bit. I have seen water & frost on the backside of sheathing & nail heads in cold weather from condensation. But not enough to cause a problem. This is why attics need to be vented even in the winter. <br />Of course if you have a leaking roof there is a lot more water that will evaporate & then condense.<br />Valley flashing in general shouldn't be caulked to the shingles. Water can get in then trapped & have to find another way out. On a roof without a lot of penetrations, the valleys are a good place to start.<br />Could the gutters be clogged or installed wrong & backing up water into the house?<br />Sounds like a poor installation from a distance.

 

[dhud64]

Re: Is there a roofer in the house? HELP!!!

Thanks everyone for all of your ideas and help! We found the problem, now it’s just a matter of repairs. What happened was when the new roof was installed apparently they knocked off the elbow and connecting pipe to the furnace exhaust! Also, the roofing company added extra roof vents which made the problem come to a head during our cold weather. There is also a leak somewhere in the valley flashing because that did leak during hard rains. <br /><br />Anyway we’re going after a total new roof because the underside of the decking is soaked and has mold in areas, we also want the extra vents removed. Finally, anything and everything below it that has been wet, paneling, sheetrock, carpet, wall insulation, electrical fixes etc….<br /><br />Now I need to research the effects of long term exposure to low levels of carbon monoxide….<br /><br />Again thanks for your help!

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: Is there a roofer in the house? HELP!!!

I wouldn't remove the vents unless they are causing other problems. When I was doing home energy audits, we figured 1 sq. ft. of vent for every 150 sq. ft. of attic, unless there was at least 3 ft. verticle height difference between the lowest and the highest vents. Then we figured 1 sq. ft. of vent for every 300 sq. ft. of attic space. Pretty much the same as BMB mentioned above.<br /><br />Do the calculations and determine what you need. Also, vents do not provide the same ventilation as their measurements would indicate. Some of the effective area is taken up by louvers and screen.

 

[flashback]

Re: Is there a roofer in the house? HELP!!!

I would agree with Boatbuoy and not remove the extra vents unless they are a leak source.. IMHO you cannot vent an attic too much........ don,t think I would worry about the carbon monoxide as the break in the vent was in the attic where the exhaust would rise and disapate provided the attic has enough ventilation. and don't bother with a power vent, they don't run in the winter so are of very little help....

 

[Xcusme]

Re: Is there a roofer in the house? HELP!!!

I agree, don't remove the vents unless they are posing a leak problem. An alternate to the "Forget Me Not" type vents , is a continuous roof vent. These continuous type roof vents provide better attic venting, wind blowing up the roof face draws hot/ moist air from the attic space. The other side of the equation, are the soffit vents. They provide the 'makeup' air for the roof vents and allow outside air to replace the hot-moist attic air . In a properly insulated attic, the temps inside the attic should be close to outside air temperature. Any protrusions in the ceiling of the house can permit warm-humid air to rise into the attic space and condense on the underside of the decking and rafters.

 

[dhud64]

Re: Is there a roofer in the house? HELP!!!

Ok, another question Mother in law has "said" her house has felt colder since the vents were installed. Is this likely from the soffet vents???

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: Is there a roofer in the house? HELP!!!

Only if she has inadequate attic insulation, which she probably has since it's wet.

 

[Xcusme]

Re: Is there a roofer in the house? HELP!!!

Originally posted by dhud64:<br /> Ok, another question Mother in law has "said" her house has felt colder since the vents were installed. Is this likely from the soffet vents???

Another thought...If the original roof was not vented, the trapped warm air above in the attic space offered a bit more 'insulation' by slowing down the air flow due to lack of natural convection. The new vents allowed this warm trapped air to vent, placing the full burden of heat loss on the attic insulation alone. Wet insulation offers very little thermal protection to both heat and cold.<br /><br />A common misconception is that heat rises, heat doesn't rise, heated air rises. Heat traveles thru a medium in all directions. Heat will travel from a heated area (inside a house) thru the walls or ceiling based on the temperature differential. The greater temperature difference the greater the heat flow. If the outside and inside temperatures are the same, no heat will move. Insulations job is to slow this heat migration, the more insulation there is, the slower the heat loss.

 

[DC698]

Re: Is there a roofer in the house? HELP!!!

Dhud64, Ironically enough, I was going to mention to check the connections of the vent pipes for the furnace and hot water heater reading through the posts. Being in the chimney/vent business I have seen this happen twice in 15 years. Could of been a lot worse off for your MIL if the attic wasnt as well vented as it is. Recently the same problem happened to another company in my area, where one of there techs dislodged a section of vent pipe which was exposed in the attic and caused major water damage from the condensing gas furnaces. They called the company I work for to fix the vent pipe. I couldnt believe the damage that had occured in the attic area. I could push my thumb into all the exposed wood in the attic. The whole roof needed a complete tear down and replacement. Lucky the two occupants of the house were still alive, and lucky your mother in law didnt get CO poisoning from it. I recommend CO detectors for anyone running any type of solid or liquid fueled appliances. Its worth the $45 for peace of mind. (Sorry so long!)