Is a new V4 60 degree block better than a inline 4 cylinder ??

[vesselgreenhead]

Hey guys, I'm considering to buy a new V4 motor in the next couple of weeks. I've done extensive research on different motors and I know they are all decent motors today. My question is some manufactories make in line 4 cylinders (Suzuki & Mercury) and some make V4 60 degree OMC/Bombardier. Please tell me, are there advantages on either one compared to the other that would make me lean towards a particular motor. I will purchase a large V4 between a 115 and 140. Longivity and loyality is what I'm looking for. They don't give these motors away today, so I want to make the right decision!!!! suggestions and likes please.......... Thanks

 

[clanton]

Re: Is a new V4 60 degree block better than a inline 4 cylinder ??

I would go for the Johnson because dealer network makes it easy to find parts, The 4 cyl merc I looked at looks like a first cousin to Force. It seems like you can always find someone to keep a Johnson running. Have you looked at Merc 135 V6.

 

[clanton]

Re: Is a new V4 60 degree block better than a inline 4 cylinder ??

I would go for the Johnson because dealer network makes it easy to find parts, The 4 cyl merc I looked at looks like a first cousin to Force. It seems like you can always find someone to keep a Johnson running. Have you looked at Merc 135 V6.

 

[Walter]

Re: Is a new V4 60 degree block better than a inline 4 cylinder ??

Just because I say things like, "If it isn't phantom black, then don't buy it!"... people accuse me of being prejudice against anything but Merc... I really don't get it.<br /><br />But if it were me...and I was the one about to shell out some serious $$ for a new outboard in that horsepower range...I'd be considering the recent problems OMC has had and calculate that into the equation. However, to be completely fair...even though I was just a kid...I remember when Carl sold Mercury to Brunswick...and I thought, "Oh great...now my local Merc rep is gonna start selling bowling balls too!" But, they didn't and things have worked out pretty well. So hey, who knows??<br /><br />Good luck in your decision...<br /><br />Walt

 

[evin300]

Re: Is a new V4 60 degree block better than a inline 4 cylinder ??

If you are looking at the new tree hugging models, I understand the OMC purchased the two leading technologies Ficht and Orbital tested them both, kept the best (Ficht) then sold orbital to Merc!<br /><br />Finally with Bomb I think the darkside will be on their heels in the coming years! Its early in the war but I smell victory

<br /><br />Of course I was very happy with my 150 XR2 merc (I just dont talk about it much) Just dont call me evinmerc300! I try to keep my darkside in the closet

 

[JB]

Re: Is a new V4 60 degree block better than a inline 4 cylinder ??

Ahoy, Vesselgreenhead! The first question: All other things being equal, the loop scavenged 2 stroke V4 is better than the loop scavenged 2 stroke inline 4. More compact, lighter, easier to balance, smoother.<br /><br />Mercs (NOT FORCE, NOT Mariner) and OMC are both very good motors. That includes the 'Rude FICHT V4s. The value leader in 2 stroke V4: Johnson. The technology leader in 2 stroke V4: Evinrude.<br /><br />Next: the question you didn't ask. What about 4 strokes? Before you spend kilobux, investigate 115 EFI 4 strokes. If you don't, I promise you, you will regret it.<br /><br />Red sky at night. . . . <br />JB

 

[Walter]

Re: Is a new V4 60 degree block better than a inline 4 cylinder ??

Ah yes...excellent point JB...<br /><br />I know I've said this before, but my state is considering outlawing 2 strokes on certains bodies of water and I'm sure other states aren't far behind. Four stroke outboards are getting better and better every year...and they are definitely an option to consider!!!

 

[evin300]

Re: Is a new V4 60 degree block better than a inline 4 cylinder ??

Other than "4-strokes are great" and "you will regret not owning one" and "the government is going to outlaw pleasure boating in this country" Could someone here actually make a case for the things. Such as a list of all of the advantages they have over a two stroke? I would like to learn why some people like these things so much.

 

[vesselgreenhead]

Re: Is a new V4 60 degree block better than a inline 4 cylinder ??

Hey guys, i appreciate all the responses including the 4 stoke recomendations but don't the direct injection motors, aka evinrude, comply with all the emision problems that the EPA is addressing at this time? Also, another question, is bombardier going to repair a motor purchased from here on out? or will it be a third party? don't those 4 strokes weigh a ton? I guess I'm from the old school of 2 strokes, sorry but please keep this going, very hard decision!!! Thanks

 

[Walter]

Re: Is a new V4 60 degree block better than a inline 4 cylinder ??

If it weren't for the EPA...I don't think "the big three" would have ever given the Asian makers much of a challenge in the four stroke market. To me...the ugly truth is that 2 stroke outboards pollute to a considerably greater degree than four stroke outboards. That's all there really is to it. The oil/gasoline mixture cannot possibly burn as cleanly and completely as raw gasoline. <br /><br />Personally, I have never operated one of the larger horsepower four strokes. Some claim they can troll all day and never miss a beat, they sound tetestronic yet quiet..and run extremely smoothly throughout the entire power range. But hey, don't get me wrong! I'm a tried and true lover of high horsepower 2 strokes...If I wanna push some serious four stroke ponies through a prop...I'll stick with my V-8 Chevy. However, there is definitely a market for four stroke outboards and I think they are here to stay. And, with that thought in mind, I wouldn't be at all surprised if "we ain't seen nuttin' yet!"

 

[Fouled Plug]

Re: Is a new V4 60 degree block better than a inline 4 cylinder ??

Four strokes are heavier. Could be 100# or more in your HP range. However,they have vastly better fuel economy, smoothness, and quietness. Of course, they are also more complex and a bit harder to work on. What are your priorities? I think the 4 strokes are the way to go, but I own one and really don't miss sucking clouds of smoke when I fire it up. I also feel better when I head out, knowing I'm not dumping huge amounts of unburned fuel/oil into my favorite fishin hole. But I also own several 2 strokes and run them regularly. I think there's room for both concepts, but at the end of the day the economy and butter-smoothness of the 4 strokes is what got me. just my .02!

 

[mbb]

Re: Is a new V4 60 degree block better than a inline 4 cylinder ??

As mentioned above, the V is always a more powerful smoother running motor than the inline. in the 115 size, a 4stroke can be bought for only about $1000 more than 2 stroke (~$7500) possibly less if a model yr old., no real reason not to go that way anymore.

 

[john ho]

Re: Is a new V4 60 degree block better than a inline 4 cylinder ??

If automobiles are any indication of the treatment of dirty engines, it seems that the powers to be will just make it difficult on the manufacturers and dealers (California dealer I is) so retail customers can't buy em. I think it remote to have major bodies of public waterways made inacessible to boaters because they have two-stroke engines and are not economically prepared to buy new 4 strokes. They didn't outlaw motorcycles did they? Consider the disparity in todays market. A two stroke classic 115hp carbuerretted outboard sells for about $6200. A four stroke sells for about $9000. Got a spare $3000 that couldn't go elsewhere? In the history of outboards seldom has there been this kind of a leap in pricing in for the same power package. If you keep your 2 stroke you'll be grandfathered in. The media will always pick up stories about Tahoe or National Parks banning two strokes, but try to enforce it. You'll be turning away approximately 80% of the public with these motors. The public won't take it. Tahoe is a special case with deep pocketed landowners taking martial law. It's really not legal- ask the Coast Guard the final law in interstate waters. The rub is finding a launch not controlled by the landowners.<br /> To return to the issue of inline 4's vs. V4's it's a win win situation. The OMC v-4 are legendary, durable motors, but the inline 4's were terrific plants too. Maybe smaller pistons and strokes but one of my favorite engines was the 85hp inline Merc. Simple and good. Something about the straight line power- very locomotive like.<br /> Merc has the best dealer network, the best parts lookup, the fastest delivery and quality control. Their computer electronic catalog is the leader in ease and user friendliness. And they now stock many competitors parts as well. Never a warranty problem- not like recent hassles at OMC. Talk to people with Ficht nightmares and ask them how their dealers and OMC treated them. Shockingly weak support. The whole rub is not so much in the tech as it is in the execution. Every football coach knows this, the Japanese retaught us this. Until OMC proves it through and through, I'll go Merc, Yam, Suzuki, Honda, and rebuild the older Johnson/Evinrudes. In the late '90s when OMC outsourced their part manufacturing they had alot of problems with quality control. Show me, prove it, and I'll be happy to go with OMC. Recently the Coast Guard forced OMC Bombardier to recall 200/225 hp Ficht motors because of faulty, loosening injector screws that were making them catch on fire on the water. Over 14 reported incidents were enough to force the Coast Guard to insist. Was it OMC initiative- NO! You go figure. The tech is brilliant- the execution (I mean screws! that hold the injectors in the cylinder ports) just not perfected. You and I are the guinea pigs.<br /> Just some thoughts to pass by. But all is forgotten soon with a great product and a little time, and anyone has a right to any opinion. In your bracket, you're good no matter what you choose, so go with the best servicing dealer- the best employed mechanics. Good luck

 

[evin300]

Re: Is a new V4 60 degree block better than a inline 4 cylinder ??

I will save this page to my hardrive, Thanks for the great arguments and the exceptional insight posted by john ho. Mike

 

[JB]

Re: Is a new V4 60 degree block better than a inline 4 cylinder ??

John's comments are certainly pertinent, and I'll sign on to his advice about going with the best local dealership. I am sure his Merc dealership in CA is as good as he claims, and agree that OMC had problems. It isn't that way everywhere, and may not be that way in KY. Check it out.<br /><br />Say, Evin300. How have the big three taken on the Japanese in 4 strokes? Merc is selling Yamahas and Evinrude is selling Suzukis. That sound to me like cooperation for now. Each of the Japanese big four, Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Tohatsu have more experience building small, light, reliable 4 stroke engines than all of US industry combined. We learned how to match their cars, we will learn how to match their 4S outboards.<br /><br />Red Sky. . . .<br />JB

 

[evin300]

Re: Is a new V4 60 degree block better than a inline 4 cylinder ??

Ok, JB here are my thoughts:<br /><br />First my thoughts on the big 3 auto makers: In the 1970s the big three were fat & lazy, they only really competed with each other, along came the gasoline crunch and the Japanese who were already expert at producing smaller more gas conservative cars were perfectly positioned to capture the change in Americans appetite from large to small, and it just so happened that they were producing a higher quality car. The big 3 completely missed the boat and IMHO and where lucky to even survive! Good old competition brings out the best in everyone! Corporate America has not been the same since, as the new World Economy era has been ushered in. Corporations in this country now lead the world in technology and are lean and mean as they compete worldwide. This is evidenced by the 10 year recession in Japan, and by the comparatively lower productivity numbers worldwide. So in conclusion, no one is teaching Corporate America anything and that includes Brunswick and OMC. The 1970s are gone for good!<br /><br />Thoughts on the big 2 (OMC & Brunswick)<br />The big 2 are currently partnering with the Japanese which makes sense, as they are very good at making 4-stroke motors, and the demand for 4-stroke fishing motors has been quite high, but this isn’t High Tech. This is about putting as much as you can in a very small space, 4-stroke technology is nothing new. If OMC and Brunswick felt that this was the future they could have easily focused all of their effort in that area. Instead they invested millions and millions as early as 7 years ago to advance 2-stroke technology. I would hardly call this being late to the game, in fact I would argue that they are leading the way. They are currently USING the Japanese to help them as they focus on the future technology. If it was not for the EPA these advances may have been delayed further, so I thank them for that, however this has led to a very tumultuous time in the outboard industry as john stated in his previous post. You have the Japanese doing what they do best, and people thinking that the future is 4-stroke, You have the big 2 introducing a whole new technology in 2-strokes and a lot of people are confused.<br /><br />How it plays out:<br />Certain engines are designed to do certain jobs. You have Diesel for large trucks and boats, you have 4-stroke for the automobile industry, you have 2-stroke which work best in outboards, motorcycles, snowmobiles, personal watercraft. Talk about pollution! been behind a Diesel lately? You have to remember that this 2-stroke technology is so new, kind of like the first VCRs they are very expensive and not widely accepted, These motors produce virtually no visible smoke, they start easily, idle smooth and are incredibly smooth throughout the power band. They are lighter, less complicated and eventually, with consumer acceptance will be much cheaper to produce than any 4-stroke. The big 2 already know that Americans want performance and clean burning motors, but when push comes to shove, performance always wins, even if this alternative pollutes just a little bit more. Therefore the 4-stroke will always be limited to about 50hp as far as being a viable alternative. Personally, I feel they are only viable only as a small fishing motor. What we are seeing with all of the hype about 4-strokes is only a Stop-Gap measure during a very tumultuous time in the industry. This will all change as the NEW 2-strokes become the way of the future. There is a lot of confusion out there people, do your homework, don’t buy the hype. Listen to owners of BOTH styles of engines, unfortunately we don’t hear from many NEW 2-stroke owners on this board. I guess that goes to show you just how new these engines are. <br /><br /><br />Vessel, I will post some links regarding researching the new technology later. Mike

 

[JB]

Re: Is a new V4 60 degree block better than a inline 4 cylinder ??

Hey, Evin. You have clearly given the whole subject a lot of thought, and we agree almost completely on how we got where we are now.<br /><br />We may not agree on exactly where we are. For example, have you followed, ridden in or driven a direct injected turbodiesel? Have you been on the water in front of a 115 EFI 4 Stroke of any brand? Have you water tested current direct injected big 2 strokes? There aren't any injected small 2 strokes because the injection systems make them heavier than the EFI 4 strokes. The FICHT 'Rude 75 2 stroke weighs more than my EFI Suzi 70 4 stroke.<br /><br />Why do you suppose those of us who have hundreds, even thousands of hours operating 2 strokes, including some time testing FICHT, OPTIMAX, VMAX, etc. Can't shut up about what wonderful fishing/cruising motors the 4 strokes are? They must be different in a way that pleases us. I don't hear much about what wonderful bass-missile/ski/tube/go-like-hell-for-the-hellofit motors they make because I doubt that they are as wonderful for those applications. If those are the applications you are into I can see why you feel the way you do. I suspect we have different priorities and that each of us shares them with a lot of people.<br /><br />The future? We disagree, but so what? Que sera sera: what will be will be.<br /><br />Red sky at night. . . . <br />JB

 

[vesselgreenhead]

Re: Is a new V4 60 degree block better than a inline 4 cylinder ??

J.B., Evin300 and john ho, I commend all of you on your opinions and differentials ( I use that word cautiously ) between 4 & 2 stokes, however and unfortunally, I really now find myself between a debate on EPA and foreign technology conglamerates merging or working together on 4 stokes. The core of the original question was the difference between inline 4's and V4's. which was better in the long run in a TWO stroke. I'm sure you would all like to know I have narrowed it down between 2 engines and would like everyones honest opinion between the two I have chosen. I will weigh my choice greatly on your opinions because frankly their are a few people in here that really know their facts and I admire that. Hats off to everyone!!!!<br />The two engines are the (two strokes) Evinrude 115 RAM direct injection and the Suzuki 115 EFI in line 4. Once again V4 or inline. They both seem to be great engines with two and three year warantees. May I have opinions on these two motors. has evinrude got the bugs out of this motor? Thanks again for everyone's opinions.

 

[JB]

Re: Is a new V4 60 degree block better than a inline 4 cylinder ??

Evinrude. The V4s never had the problems that caused all the furor. That was (is??) the V6s. The Suzi is an excellent engine, but I favor the 'Rude V4.<br /><br />Red sky at night. . . . <br />JB

 

[Dunk]

Re: Is a new V4 60 degree block better than a inline 4 cylinder ??

No one has covered the basic differences between an inline 4 and a V4.. It would have helped to know what boat you are putting this engine on. If it's a heavier boat you want the V4. The V block will have much more low end grunt to get the boat out of the hole. The Merc will kill you with a heavy boat. Did you know that the 4 cylinder mercs only run on two cylinders below 1800rpms? This makes them a lousy engine on heavy boats. The merc is a good engine, but it must be kept in a tight rpm band. They won't live long if they are under/over proped.