I need some opinions please.

[Idlespeedonly]

First thing I would like to say is this is a great forum, very informative.
I recently purchased a 1989 Ebbtide 224 Catalina Cuddy. I got this boat for 2000 dollars. I feel for the condition this boat is in it is well worth it. The original interior is spotless no tears, stains, broken pieces anywhere. I have been in boats less than two years old that werent even close to this one. I bought this boat knowing the outdrive is bad.Apparently it was run with no oil in the upper. The gear fragments have welded themselves into a clump all around the lockring that that holds the vertical gear in. There is no way to disassemble the unit. It even covers the threads in the aluminum housing. As for the lower it is corroded bad enough that it wont come apart. This boat has been in freshwater only. I ran it on the trailer for a little bit it didnt smoke at all once the carb got some gas in it. It has been sitting for about 3 or 4 years in storage.

So I get it home fiddle around with some wiring let it run with water hooked up to the inlet line for about 20 minutes. I shut it off took a look in the oil cap. The oil is very milky. Change it run it for another 20 minutes. Still milky. pulled valve covers off, looks like sombody was hiding their vanilla pudding there. So i pulled the intake of planing to see a big crack, nothing there. so i figured a head is cracked. drain all the water out, rig up a valve and gauge to put some air in the cooling system. I pump it up to 20 pounds. After about 10-15 minutes it is down to around 8 pounds. Deffinately not a fast leak to me. All hoses are tight(not leaking), block drains tight. I know the air is going somewhere. But where? I pretty sure block isnt cracked. I believe it would leak as fast as I could get it in. Kinda sure about heads not cracked. I figure maybe the head gaskets or head bolts.

I know condensation can turn oil. but how many changes to clear it up? That nasty oil has a lot of places to hide. And with no outdrive I cant load it up real well to flush it out. I also know the compression is around 80 pounds on all cylinders. so I know a rebuild is on the to do list. Not worried about the rebuild I have done quite a few. just dont know about the water issue, and cant find a reasonable outdrive for sale. Engine can be rebuilt for around 700-800 dollars i believe. As long as heads and crank are good. So do you think with a rebuild and a new outdrive in the future this boat is still worth the money? Or should I cut my losses and get rid of it.

Sorry about the long post also.

 

[gbeltran]

Re: I need some opinions please.

Sorry, but no. For the money you are going to be in it you could have a later model boat that is river ready, or lake, or wherever you boat, with a Merc or Volvo that are easier to source parts. If you are totally into the boat, then it's up to you. I'd ditch the cobra for an SEI drive conversion. I had good luck with my OMC stuff in the past, but I wouldn't own one now, they've been out of business for a long time and parts, while still available, aren't usually in stock at the local marina. You can buy a rebuilt engine from Rapido for about 1500 I think, then you don't have to worry about whether or not your heads or crank are good.

 

[Idlespeedonly]

Re: I need some opinions please.

I bought this boat knowing it may be a project, which I am fine with. As far as the sei unit, I prefer to go with what was on it. I am just afraid of any issues with the conversion. I also know once the engine is done I probably wont have to worry about it again. What is your opinion on the slow air leak also. Also, what kind of fuel usage would be expected with this boat? Thanks.

 

[gbeltran]

Re: I need some opinions please.

Is this a closed cooling system? If it's open then your test wont work. You have to take the engine down anyway, you should be able to see a crack if it's leaking that much water into the oil. I hear you on the outdrive, OMC replacement will obviously be plug and play, but for what you will pay for a good unit or having one redone you could buy one from SEI with a warranty. Yes, it's more work, but at least it uses common parts. Just my opinion, since I don't see too many cobra outdrives for sale.

 

[Idlespeedonly]

Re: I need some opinions please.

No its not closed. But I capped off the ports on the thermostat housing that go to the exhaust manifold. Then pressurized the hose that goes to the t-stat housing from the transom. As slow as it leaked out it could have been coming out a head bolt. Air will leak out of places water wont. I think(hope) the water was from condesation from sitting so long.

 

[Idlespeedonly]

Re: I need some opinions please.

Also, on a 350 chevy outdrive, does the engine have to be running before the garden hose is turned on? To prevent water from backing up in to the engine?

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: I need some opinions please.

No its not closed. But I capped off the ports on the thermostat housing that go to the exhaust manifold. Then pressurized the hose that goes to the t-stat housing from the transom. As slow as it leaked out it could have been coming out a head bolt. Air will leak out of places water wont. I think(hope) the water was from condesation from sitting so long.

Howdy, You have basically bought yourself a boat with NO engine or drive.

After about 10-15 minutes it is down to around 8 pounds. Deffinately not a fast leak to me. All hoses are tight(not leaking), block drains tight. I know the air is going somewhere. But where? I pretty sure block isnt cracked. I believe it would leak as fast as I could get it in. Kinda sure about heads not cracked. I figure maybe the head gaskets or head bolts.

Good Job on pressure checking!!

From your description, you have a cracked block..... When the engine gets hot the crack opens up and the flow increases. Pull the intake manifold. You may see the crack(s) "in the valley".............



The drive was probably either run low on oil, or someone refilled it like a Mercruiser and the upper failed. Either way both the drive and engine are junk.

To get it to reliable running condition, you need to get a long-block and another drive.

When it's a Cobra, you can try to find another drive or have that one rebuilt, but you'll still have a Cobra. Also consider that if you rebuild/replace the engine, understand that you'll probably have to replace the exhaust manifolds and risers (NEVER PUT USED EX MANIFOLDS/RISERS ON A NEW ENGINE!!!).

Figure $1500-2000 for a longblock. ( you didn't say, it's a 5.7L V-8?)

$500-600 for an exhaust kit (center riser),

Rebuilt drive $1500-2000 The following people (and many others) rebuild them: http://www.sterndrive.info/rebuilt_lower_unit.html

Now the question might be (after you do all of the above) Is the boat worth (to you or anyone else) $2000+ $500+$1500 + labor (if you cannot do it) +other incidentals....... $4000-5000? (with a Cobra hanging off the back)


Your other option (and what I did with the boat in my signature) is pull all the OMG "stuff" and replace........... I payed $5000 for a used complete package from a locally wind damaged 1998 24ft Bayliner. ( I was also very lucky to sell all the OMC stuff piece by piece over a couple of years, recovering $3500........I don't think that would happen now however......)


I payed $5000 for my boat. Bought it from my brother. I thought I would be able to run it for years......Thought I got a "Good" deal.....yada yada... (no boat with a 460 King Cobra is worth that much ) I am DONE crying in my beer!!

You could also do the SEI drive thing. But that's a better plan when you have nothing to do to the engine. I wouldn't stick with the OMC stuff If I didn't have to....

the condition this boat is in it is well worth it. The original interior is spotless no tears, stains, broken pieces anywhere. I have been in boats less than two years old that werent even close to this one.

Since your boat is in such good shape, it's probably worth finding a donor boat or a collection of Mercruiser parts and doing the swap.

The transom cutout is the same. All you might want to do is (since the boat was so "well taken care of" ) is check the transom and rear stringer area for ROT.

Good luck,


Rick

 

[Idlespeedonly]

Re: I need some opinions please.

I believe I might abandon ship. A find something a little better. I really don't think it is cracked. I pulled the intake the other day, everything was good. Obviously no cracks outside either. When I asked about running a 350 on a hose earlier I was referring to this one. I have rebuilt several. Sbc's before so im not afraid of this one. I would hate to rebuild this one, fire it up for the first time to find it still leaking. But thank you for the advice. It is better to get opinions from som a ebody on the outside.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: I need some opinions please.

Obviously no cracks outside either. When I asked about running a 350 on a hose earlier I was referring to this one.

But you pressure checked it, it leaks, and there's water in the oil. 99.9% of the time, in a raw water cooled marine engine that resides in an area that experiences freezing temps, it all means a cracked block.........they don't always crack visibly on the outside.

That boat might be a great deal if you already had an engine and drive all ready to go sitting in your garage.

Regards,


Rick

 

[Idlespeedonly]

Re: I need some opinions please.

Why woulnt you reuse the manifold? Also, what is the proper sequence for running it on a garden hose.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: I need some opinions please.

Why woulnt you reuse the manifold? Also, what is the proper sequence for running it on a garden hose.

You could if they were fairly new to begin with.

But if you just bought a new engine because the block was cracked due to freezing, the manifolds frequently crack for the same reason. If they're rusty and old. There's no way to determine how long it will be before they start leaking.

If they start leaking, at the wrong time, like right after you shut it down for a couple of weeks, or a season, you're replacing the engine when you see it next Spring. New engines should always get new manifolds and risers. They're not all that expensive compared to a new engine or long block.

Hook up the hose, turn it on(make sure the muffs don't fall off), start engine.............shut engine down, turn off the water.

 

[Idlespeedonly]

Re: I need some opinions please.

That is what I was thinking was the reason. The reason I asked the sequence is I read somewhere that water can flow back into the exhaust ports. My dad has 30 plus years in the outboard business but not to familiar with io's. I guess I will have to think about my next steps. I don't want to convert it to mercruiser setup. I like the sei system. And I may go that route. I may go with a reman engine. I have all winter to work on it.

 

[Idlespeedonly]

Re: I need some opinions please.

Well I found the source of my water leak. And best of all there are pictures! It looks like I may have dodged the bullet on the cracked block.If you look at the piston you can see how clean it is from the water leaking. And the nice water trail leading into the cylinder. Also the thin gasket between cylinders is corroded pretty bad. Still havent pulled the other side yet, but I am sure I will find results close to this. Also you can see in one of the pictures were water had been sitting on the piston for a pretty long time.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: I need some opinions please.

That is what I was thinking was the reason. The reason I asked the sequence is I read somewhere that water can flow back into the exhaust ports.

It CAN, but ONLY if there's a riser-manifold gasket leak OR an (internal) crack in the manifold or riser.....The riser-elbow prevents water from "running back" (that's it's purpose!)

The RAW water pump generally prevents water from flowing through the manifolds and risers until it starts turning anyway......(it's a positive displacement vane-type pump NOT a centrifugal pump which WOULD allow pressure-water to flow through it a little..........)
.......... Water usually won't flow through a positive displacement type pump in any amount until it starts turning.

Well I found the source of my water leak. And best of all there are pictures! It looks like I may have dodged the bullet on the cracked block.

WOOHOO!

You're in minority! but you won't know for sure until you replace gaskets, torque the heads, and re-pressurize.

Before you re-use your manifolds and risers, you should "break" them apart and replace the riser gaskets. (look inside too for rust in the exhaust area )


Somewhere in the adults only sticky is a process for checking risers and manifolds for internal leaks. it'll tell you if they're leaking (now) It will not tell you when they'll START leaking! (this is why it's good to replace manifolds and risers when there's ANY question about the thickness of the internal water-jacket etc......)


Good luck!


Rick

 

[Idlespeedonly]

Re: I need some opinions please.

Yea, I took the manifolds apart. Now I see how they work, they look to be in very good condition. Gaskets were intact and good. It was a big relief to see the gaskets in this condition. I will pull the other side apart maybe friday. I am sure the other side will look pretty much the same(I hope). As for the waterpump I understand and agree with you on that. But the outdrive is currently not on. So I am hooked up directly to the rubber line that goes to the thermostat housing.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: I need some opinions please.

If you have the drive off, it's not critical when you start the engine with the water running(to protect the raw water pump from running "dry").......

The other side of the equation is that if you have water running out of the risers when you shut the engine down, OR IF the engine backfires and briefly turns backwards as they sometimes do, you *could* suck some water back into the exhaust and some of it *could* run into an open exhaust valve causing a hydrolock.

It cannot happen when you have a raw water pump pumping water because when the engine stops turning, the water stops.

If the engine turns backward, the raw water pump WILL not pump water......with "Muffs" on the drive, water pressure (like I said earlier) won't get to the exhaust either.

So in this case (no drive, eng running), I would start the engine, turn on the water..........then....later, turn OFF the water, KILL engine. in that order.