hydrogen fuel cells

mellowyellow

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Jun 8, 2002
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wondering what you guys think about the $ Bush has<br />set aside for hydrogen cell research? it's about<br />time IMHO, we should not be so dependent on ANYTHING<br />from the middle east. and what will happen to all<br />the oil rich countries that have no other natural<br />resources when the demand for oil dissapears?<br />without oil, sadaam couln't afford a pea shooter.<br /> http://www.msnbc.com/news/865910.asp
 

ebbtide176

Commander
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Jan 22, 2002
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2,289
Re: hydrogen fuel cells

it makes me feel very good to think of less independance on ME oil... the link makes me think it still will involve the oil companies to extract it(Hydrogen) from fossil fuels...<br /><br />lets just hope for a way to make it available from all dealers, and with affordable pricing. so if honda sells a car for this now, where do you go to pickup fuel cells? and what is avg mileage per cell? and cost of cell?
 

mellowyellow

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Jun 8, 2002
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5,327
Re: hydrogen fuel cells

take H20 and remove the O.... then we can fill up<br />with a garden hose everyday. engine would emit pure oxygen.<br />gotta start somewhere and it's good to see it<br />becoming more of a main stream issue.
 

grandx

Petty Officer 1st Class
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May 21, 2001
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383
Re: hydrogen fuel cells

For mellow, first law of physics "conservation of energy" - "you don't get something for nothing". Removing the O from H2O is a simple process, you can do in your garage, problem is the engergy required to remove the O from water is greater then the energy extracted from the hydrogen. I Don't think you will be filling your boat or car with your garden hose anytime soon. Yet I do think fuel cells have potential in the future.
 

mellowyellow

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Re: hydrogen fuel cells

thanks for the lesson Grandx. so the energy given<br />by hydrogen fuel cells comes from the removal process?<br />gonna have to research this one I guess.<br />water sure would be nice for a boat though!
 

roscoe

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Oct 30, 2002
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Re: hydrogen fuel cells

Hydrogen fuel cell technology has been in the works for over a decade. My nephew wrote a term parer on it back in 96. <br /><br />The energy is created and released as an electrical impulse. As the hydrogen molecules on one side of a membrane passes thru it and combines with oxygen molecules, an electrical charge is released. With enough charges comes eletricity to power a motor. It is electricity on demand, ask for more, and more is available. The byproduct is water dropping out of your "engine".<br /><br />Yes there is the old physics law of conservation of energy, can't make something from nothing. So we need a source of hydrogen gas.<br /><br />The fuel cell technology will become viable in a few years. The conversion from h2o to hydrogen gas is very simple, much like a plant does it. The only problem lies in an energy source to use to separate it out. <br /><br />Put this in the back of your mind, and see if I am right in a few years. The source will be wind power.<br /><br />It can be used when it blows, to power a hydrogen gas separater, which can then be stored for use when needed. You will be able to fill your tank much like filling a propane tank for your grill, or like the natural gas powered vehicles in use today.<br /><br />The fuel cells themselves have no moving parts to wear out, but will require some periodic cleaning to maintain efficiency. They claim they will last for decades, so when your car wears out, you can buy a new one, without fuel a cell, then install your old cell into the new vehicle.<br /><br />Imagine this, a quiet non-polluting self contained power plant in every neighborhood. No more transmission lines cutting thru our public and private land, no power grid worries, fewer conventional power plants(eventually-none as pipelines are built). Place a fuel cell in your house and fill up the tank, and produce your own elictricity for your home.<br /><br />Popular Mechanics has done some some nice articles on the subject.
 

grandx

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May 21, 2001
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383
Re: hydrogen fuel cells

I think the first uses for fuel cells will be extracting H2 from hydrocarbons. Hydrocarbons contain large amounts of hydrogen and can be extracted easier. There are many hydrocarbons that are not very useful at this time, they are not readily available for refining, but can be used with a fuel cell. I think, the fuel cell technology is more efficient than refining petro and burning it, with less polution to boot.
 

Scoop

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Re: hydrogen fuel cells

I agree Grandx. In the short term, H2 from hydorcarbon fuels will be the easiest and most inexpensive. I am not sure what is left after the Hydrogen is taken off the moelcules, but it may cause a lot of disposal problems. It will probably be less expensive than using other methods, but we can only hope we have a future government that puts some long term money into generating H2 a more efficient way with renewable resources and little waste. I hope this is not a smoke screen (no pun intended) to shine light away from the other places where the environmental laws have been pulled back for self-policing companies. I know Enron did a good job of policing themselves.
 

SCO

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Re: hydrogen fuel cells

Searched google and found some trying to extract hydrogen by fermentation. Would boil down to solar powered extraction, and probably as limited as gasahol from corn. From nuclear plants I bet you could extract a lot of hydrogen. What about controlled hydrogen fusion? Can that be done yet?
 

Norm Malcosky

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Aug 14, 2002
Messages
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Re: hydrogen fuel cells

Having worked in the fuel cell area for several years - the problems are well understood, they include:<br /><br />fuel storage, Fuel Storage, FUEL STORAGE!!<br /><br />Technical issues with the cell are being currently being addressed, (catalyst poisioning, moisture content, temperature control . . . ect.)<br /><br />On a boat or a car how do you store enough fuel? Hydrogen is either very cold (cryogenic)as a liquid or very difficult to compress as a gas (it only has 1/3 the energy content of CNG)
 

SCO

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Re: hydrogen fuel cells

Lol Mellow. I've since searched again and found it not to be an answer far as I can tell.
 

Scoop

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Re: hydrogen fuel cells

Have they looked at a tank coated with the equivalent of jet fuel? Oh, someone already did.<br /><br />
T047973A.jpg
 

ebbtide176

Commander
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Jan 22, 2002
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Re: hydrogen fuel cells

lol scoop. and i was just gonna give my kudos to roscoe on wind powered. <br /><br />we can carry some burritos for emergency purposes, when the wind isn't blowing ;) have a little air duct running from right under our seat - back to the intake fan...<br /><br />maybe make it dual-purpose! have a little bbq striker deal inline from our 'seat ductwork', press a button and get a little 'NOS' type boost :D
 

plywoody

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Aug 11, 2002
Messages
685
Re: hydrogen fuel cells

Like someone said, Hydrogen fuel cells have been around for some time. Hydrogen, along with Oxygen, are the most common molecules on the earth.<br /><br />Any source of power can extract hydrogen from water, but my guess is that to get it in commercial quantities like gasoline, nuclear power is going to be necessary. I don't think wind is going to do it.<br /><br />Not sure if 1.2 billion over 10 years is going to make much of a dent, but it is a start, and at some point in time, we will have to invent our way out of a energy crisis, and not plan to drill our way out of it.<br /><br />I think it has been on hold in Detroit mostly because of economics, and not because of technology. It is lots more expensive than traditional gasoline power at present.
 

crab bait

Captain
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Feb 5, 2002
Messages
3,831
Re: hydrogen fuel cells

i've always thought ,,even as a kid,, that why burn raw liquid gasoline,, princable..??<br />just burn the fumes,,interest...<br /><br />put somethin' between the tank an the engine.. like a ''sub-tank' with a 'whipper' inside.. <br /><br />take raw liquid gasoline a whip off the fumes.. don't burn the princable in the main tank..<br /><br />now your talkin' many many many mpg on a gallon of gas..<br /><br />patten holder exclusive to::<br /><br />CRAB BAIT fuels incorporated esq. & amalgimated co..<br /><br />another words... HANDS OFF..!!! ;)
 

roscoe

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Messages
21,740
Re: hydrogen fuel cells

Why are people looking to the government to develope or fund this??? Private industry has always found the best way to do things because the competition drives efficiency and the reward is great. Every major auto and energy company in at least 7 nations has been working on this, and they will be the ones to perfect it. The gov't $$ will help but is nothing compared to the private dollars. Actually, the government could muck up the works by funding some R&D and giving an unfair competitive edge to some companies and technologies, which might mean that the best system won't come to market. <br /><br />Wind may not do it for the city folk. But out in fly over country, one mill can provide enough power to separate lots of H2, which can be stored (without batteries) to be used when needed, to electrify and heat lots of homes.
 
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