Historical documentaries. Written by Hollywood?

[JB]

Noticed a few simple but important errors recently. As a student of WWII in the Pacific and of US Naval Aviation they really annoyed me.<br /><br />The errors appeared deliberate attempts to heighten the drama of the stories. That is what Hollywood writers always do to history.<br /><br />In a Discovery Channel story of the battle of Midway: <br /><br />"The first US Carrier was the Langly, built on a cruiser hull." Wrong. The Langly was a converted collier hull. It was the second carrier, Ranger, that was built on a cruiser hull.<br /><br />"The battle of Midway was the first naval battle in which the vessels never saw one another." Wrong. That was the battle of the Coral Sea.<br /><br />Just examples. There were more.<br /><br />In a NOVA story about the Japanese Battleship Yamato:<br /><br />"The biggest, most powerful battleship ever built." Wrong. The Musashi was her sistership, built to the same plan and identically armed. A third superbattleship was built with a carrier deck on the fordeck. She was was sunk in a successful decoy mission that got Bill "Bull" Halsey in a lot of trouble and created the scene for the battle off Samar.<br /><br />"The first time US Navy men ever saw her was on her suicide mission toward Okinawa." Wrong. She was seen and attacked during the campaign for Guadalcanal, in the Subian Sea (where the Musashi was sunk by US Navy aircraft) and she was engaged in the battle off Samar, where she and her escort were chased away by aggressive US Destroyers and Destroyer Escorts supported by US Escort Carrier aircraft armed for ground support. The battle off Samar was one of the greatest and most important engagements of the war. The documentary did not mention it.<br /><br />"She might have been twice the size of the US Battleships." She was certainly bigger, to support her 9 18" naval rifles, but twice as big would put her at over 88,000 tons and would have required over 10 miles to turn around at flank speed, a maneuver she accomplished in under 5 miles at Samar. 50,000 to 55,000 tons is more likely.<br /><br />I wonder how Matttttt and RetNav feel about rewriting history and calling it a documentary?

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Historical documentaries. Written by Hollywood?

Sharp eye/ear JB. They are just testing, waiting for us + - boomers to die off. Then they can present the whole program like they did with the Enola Gay exhibit at the Smithsonian.

 

[ZodFutMk2]

Re: Historical documentaries. Written by Hollywood?

I concur they stretch the truth for dramatic reasons, or perhaps they're just too lazy to do proper research.<br /><br />According to this page, estimated weight of the Yamato, full load was 72,800 tons.<br /><br /> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Yamato <br /><br />Decent pictures too.<br /><br />Admiral Harold F. Pullen was my math and computer teacher in high school. He too would rant and rave about how history was always being modified to suit the times. We always teased him that his wife got top billing regarding the attack at Pearl Harbor.<br /><br />I learned about the Cactus Air Force from Commander Kinion. It was always more interesting to hear the truth from those that were there over the brief synopsis provided in history texts.

 

[orca]

Re: Historical documentaries. Written by Hollywood?

Yeah, I saw a movie recently ( cant remember the name) that featured the US navy capturing the code books for the German Enigma machines from a trawler in the atlantic, Sorry guys, the sailors were British. Dont stop a few facts getting in the way of a good story!!

 

[Kiwi Phil]

Re: Historical documentaries. Written by Hollywood?

That is an excellant site ZFM2. Have put it in my favourtires.<br />Cheers<br />Phillip

 

[RetNav]

Re: Historical documentaries. Written by Hollywood?

JB, with the changes Hollywood makes to history I fully expect someone to come up with a movie where it is suggested the navy played no significant role in WWII..

 

[mattttt25]

Re: Historical documentaries. Written by Hollywood?

jb, it all depends on what the product is and how it's presented. in my opinion, a documentary should strive to present facts about an event, person, etc. in the examples you provided, i would think the documentary failed, although i'm not sure they were deliberate or how it would make them more appealing to an audience (at least your first two examples).<br /><br />on the flip side, the minor details don't really bother me. if the story is about ww2, but a soldier walks by in uniform and happens to be wearing a ribbon issued during vietnam, i just look at it as sloppy production. it doesn't really affect the story or it's purpose. make sense? but this is what most of us look for and see in movies, the little mistakes.<br /><br />i agree with you. if you want to call it a true documentary, you need to present facts and make sure they are correct, as best you can. now if the facts are a bit blurred, the documentary could slant toward the writers' opinion, and that may be ok. but facts need to be stated.

 

[PW2]

Re: Historical documentaries. Written by Hollywood?

In college, I had a history professor I'll never forget.<br /><br />I went to visit him in his office one day, and noticed him ripping out the pages of a book he was reading, and throwing them in the trash.<br /><br />"Didn't like the book?" I asked<br /><br />"No", he said, "It is a good book. Every term, I read a different account of the particular time frame I happen to be teaching at the time. Then I destroy it, so I won't read it again. <br />Eventually I hope to get close to understanding what 'really' happened."<br /><br />It was his position "historical facts" are a nebulous concept--whether or not there is any political agenda of some sort behind it.

 

[tcube]

Re: Historical documentaries. Written by Hollywood?

JB - Hollywood was very successful in convincing a large part of a couple of generations that GWTW is an accurate account of the Civil War. Given time, they will rewrite all kinds of history.<br /><br />It particularly bothers me that we see significant inaccuracies in NOVA - I always hoped they'd work to a higher standard. It seems their most recent programs are mostly about entertaining not informing.

 

[Twidget]

Re: Historical documentaries. Written by Hollywood?

The shows that JB is talking about are supposed to be documentaries. I caught the same mistakes, my wife told me Im too picky.

 

[JB]

Re: Historical documentaries. Written by Hollywood?

I may have done Discovery a disservice. The Midway show I ranted about could have been Nat'l. Geo.<br /><br />I saw another Midway show on the Military channel this evening (subsidiary of Discovery) and it was spot on. If there were any incorrect statements I missed them.<br /><br />One cannot be too picky about things that claim to be the truth, Twidget. Those kinds of "truth" can create new, incorrect truth. History is loaded with revisions because of sloppy research or simple "artistic license" playing some particular agenda.<br /><br />For one of the most glaring examples, just look at the battle of the Greasy Grass. That started out as pure myth, "Custer and his troops massacred by savages". It has taken 129 years to get closer to the truth. Maybe someday we will know what really happened and who was the savage.

 

[bekosh]

Re: Historical documentaries. Written by Hollywood?

Originally posted by JB:<br /> <br />It was the second carrier, Ranger, that was built on a cruiser hull.<br />

Actually, Ranger was the 4th carrier and the first built from the keel up as a carrier. CV's 2 & 3 were the Lexington and Saratoga, converted from incomplete Battlecruisers.<br /><br />

Originally posted by JB:<br /> A third superbattleship was built with a carrier deck on the fordeck. She was was sunk in a successful decoy mission that got Bill "Bull" Halsey in a lot of trouble and created the scene for the battle off Samar.

The 3rd Yamato class was converted to a carrier named Shinano. She was sunk near Japan in November 1944 by the US sub Archerfish. She was incomplete at the time lacking even watertight doors. The hybrid Battleship/Carriers at the Battle of the Philippine Sea were the Ise & Hyuga.<br /><br />

Originally posted by JB:<br /> She was seen and attacked during the campaign for Guadalcanal, in the Subian Sea (where the Musashi was sunk by US Navy aircraft) <br />

That would be during the battle for the Philippines, Yamato sat out the Guadalcanal campaign, never leaving her base at Truk.<br /><br />

Originally posted by JB:<br />She was certainly bigger, to support her 9 18" naval rifles, but twice as big would put her at over 88,000 tons and would have required over 10 miles to turn around at flank speed, a maneuver she accomplished in under 5 miles at Samar. 50,000 to 55,000 tons is more likely.<br />

At the time of Yamato's completion the largest US BB's were the North Carolina and South Dakota classes. Each had a displacement of about 35,000 tons. Only the Iowa class, completed in 43 & 44, were larger, nearly 50,000 tons.<br /><br />Year Completed Yamato: 1941 Musashi: 1942 <br />Displacement 65,000 tons (71,659 tons Full load)<br />Dimensions 862'10" x 121'1" x 32'11" <br />Speed 27 knots <br />Armament 9 x 18.1"/45<br />12 (later 6) x 6.1"/60<br />12 (later 24) x 5"/40 DP<br />up to 150 x 25mm AA<br />4 x 13mm AA <br />Armor 16.1" belt (inclined)<br />11.8" bulkheads<br />9.1" deck<br />25.6" turret face<br />19.7" conning tower <br />Crew 2800

 

[Twidget]

Re: Historical documentaries. Written by Hollywood?

When I was a kid, I built 1:700 scale waterline series models imported from Japan. The models of Ise and Hyuga were some strange looking contraption. The had their rear turrets removed and a partial flight deck installed for float planes.

 

[JB]

Re: Historical documentaries. Written by Hollywood?

Thanks for the corrections, Bekosh. <br /><br />I should have remembered the Saratoga and Lexington, and I had the Shinano mixed up with Ise.<br /><br />I think the Iowa class BBs were 43,000 tons. Am I wrong there, too?

 

[ZodFutMk2]

Re: Historical documentaries. Written by Hollywood?

Iowa class:<br /><br /> http://www.bb62museum.org/stats.html <br /><br />45,000 Design Standard<br />48,110 Standard<br />57,540 Full Load

 

[DJ]

Re: Historical documentaries. Written by Hollywood?

JB,<br /><br />Thank you, for your service-SIR.<br /><br />

The errors appeared deliberate attempts to heighten the drama of the stories. That is what Hollywood writers always do to history.<br />

They are, fabrications, and will continue.<br /><br />This a REAL HOT BUTTON of mine. And, I get emotional about it-admitted.<br /><br />As an example: My father was 17 years old (lied), when he joined, at 20 he was commanding (pilot) a B-24 Liberator over Europe. First, out of England, and then Italy-flying over and bombing Ploesti, Romania. Basically chasing Rommel around the desert of No. Africa. Doing Everything the plane was NOT designed to do. How many "20 somethings" have the stones to do that today?<br /><br />The 24 "Liberator" has been relegated, by Hollywood, as "insignificant". Hollywood chose the B-17 "Flying Fortress" as its queen. (12 O'clock high, Memphis Belle, etc.) <br /><br />Fact is, the '24' carried more, faster, and was built in far superior numbers to the '17'. They also, by numbers, suffered more casualties. Chances of returning from a bomber tour were one in three. Dad did TWO tours.<br /><br />I can't even begin to imagine the thoughts of those brave souls. Being out/up there, under fire, with unproven technology, over miles of sea and desert with HEAVY enemy fire-flack. Not to mention the fighters. Death was EVERYWHERE.<br /> <br />We do not know-today-what actually sunk many of the WWII grand ships, of the day. Divers and submersibles have gathered much info. but, we'll never know. We forget, too easily, the numbers of lives that were lost as those big ships went down. The Indianapolis, Bismark, HMSS Hood, Prince of Wales, Yamoto, come to mind. Plus many more untold allied/axis ships. The losses on those ships, all tolled beat Viet Nam. Not to belittle VN vet's. You fought a thankless war, and did it bravely. My, forever, gratitude. A price nobody should pay.<br /><br />Truk, is littered with history. I'd love to dive that.<br /><br />If we ask the general public today, what those names, of past, meant, they would reply:<br /><br />1. A coffee at Starbucks.<br /><br />2. A car.<br /><br />IMHO, we don't want to know, nor, do we care. <br /><br />Pathetic. IMHO.<br /><br />The WWII generation, what's left of it, doesn't talk. True heroes, in my book.<br /><br /><br />Bravery, at its finest.<br /><br />Again, JB. Thank You.