High Phos. M/C oil for 4 stroke outboards?

jmoser

Seaman Apprentice
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May 6, 2003
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Special grade 'motorcycle only' oils have higher levels of phosphorus additives which are superior wear lubricants. (These were taken out of car oils with the advent of emission controls.) You cannot use these in cars as they will poison the catalytic converter and/or Oxygen sensors.<br /><br />They should be fine for 4 stroke outboards without catalysts and O2 sensors.<br /><br />Unless anyone knows of a Bona Fide reason why these should not be used I intend to use the same 'M/C' oil in my Tohatsu as my Kawasaki.<br /><br />These phosphorus additives are not some 'Slick 50' gimmick - they are the best compounds you can use for engine lube oil, just are not compatible with emission catalysts etc. Do some Google research and verify for yourself:<br /><br />'Engine oil contains zinc and phosphorus in the form of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate [ZDDP], an engine anti-wear additive. The phosphorus from this additive is a catalyst poison because it tends to form deposits on the catalyst surface. FOCAS offers consistent oil consumption rates and characteristics. The main impact of non-thermal aging (phosphorus and zinc deposition) on the catalyst surface typically manifests itself as delayed catalyst light-off times and lower temperatures as the poisons tend to accumulate on the inlet face of the catalyst and block active catalytic sites.'
 

JB

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45,907
Re: High Phos. M/C oil for 4 stroke outboards?

I wouldn't suggest oil formulated for air cooled engines for use in outboards.<br /><br />I used Mobil 1 and suggest it to other 4S outboard owners.<br /><br />If in doubt use the oil specs required or recommended by the maker of your engine.<br /><br />I'll probably catch it from LD, BillP and TOD for saying anything about oil, but that is my opinion, anyway.<br /><br />Now stand by for a symposium on motor oil chemistry. :(
 

jim dozier

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Jan 8, 2003
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1,970
Re: High Phos. M/C oil for 4 stroke outboards?

Go for it. I love a test project when someone else does the research. Run it hard and report back here on the results. Keep good records. Um lessee who makes motorcycles? Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki. Honda and Suzuki also make cars and trucks and Honda has a F1, IRL, and SCCA auto-racing division. Um who makes most of the outboards these days? Yamaha, Suzuki, Honda I think. So the engineers at Yamaha, Suzuki, and Honda have never thought of this. Dang those engineers for overlooking it and not communicating with the chemists. Same problem in my office. Who do these TCW3 chemists think they are anyway. These forums love a good oil debate. :D
 

BillP

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Aug 10, 2002
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Re: High Phos. M/C oil for 4 stroke outboards?

My bonafide reason for not using "mcy grade" oil in an outboard would be IF it didn't meet the mfg written specifications for their motor. Land based liquid cooled mcy motors typically run hotter (+-200F)than raw water cooled marine engines (+-140F). Common sense says the oils need to be different.
 

jmoser

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May 6, 2003
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Re: High Phos. M/C oil for 4 stroke outboards?

True about operating temps and air cooled engines, but my Tohatsu owners manual OK's automotive spec 15W-50 down to sub-freezing temperatures. It is the base stock (ie 15W) that is typically the critical factor in operating temperature issues.<br /><br />Mobil 1 makes a M/C grade as well - the phosphorus additives are just anti-wear chemistry, they used to be in car oils back in the 'Good Ol' Days' before catalysts.<br /><br />I'll do a little more research first but am not overly concerned about the air vs liquid cooling issue, total different story than in 2 strokes.
 

jmoser

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Joined
May 6, 2003
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Re: High Phos. M/C oil for 4 stroke outboards?

Got some input from an automotive engineering expert and he sees no obvious issues. I also learned that the ZDDP additive is a good corrosion preventative as well as reducing oxidation and wear.<br /><br />FYI liquid cooled diesels also use ZDDP in their 'C' spec oils, diesels run much cooler than gasoline engines so that is a good sign that operating temps should not be an issue. <br /><br />Seems like having no catalyst is the limiting factor on higher ZDDP levels in any 4-stroke engine oil.
 

LubeDude

Admiral
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Oct 8, 2003
Messages
6,945
Re: High Phos. M/C oil for 4 stroke outboards?

What oil are we talking about, and what are the designations on the bottle?<br /><br />ZDDP is also a detergent, and other than being an anti oxidation aditive its ability as a friction fighter will only come into effect if metal actually comes into contact with metal. Its more of an anti gaulling additive. Important in high valve spring rates for wear on cams and lifters.
 

seahorse5

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Jan 24, 2002
Messages
4,698
Re: High Phos. M/C oil for 4 stroke outboards?

How much do these special motorcycle oils cost per quart compared to what is recommended in your outboard owners manual?<br /><br />For my Harley, Mobil 1 V-Twin oil is around $7 per quart!!!! Official Harley synthetic is over $8 per quart.<br /><br />Hell, we have folks argueing here in these forums about Walmart oil (cheap oil) in their outboards, and you want to use super expensive specialty lubes that aren't even designed for outboard motors?<br /><br />Trailer Boats magazine did a whole story and a series of tests on special outboard oils compared to ordinary car oils. The Pennzoil 10W-30 came out better than some of the "manufacturer's " oils that cost a lot more per quart.
 

LubeDude

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Oct 8, 2003
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Re: High Phos. M/C oil for 4 stroke outboards?

Originally posted by seahorse:<br /> The Pennzoil 10W-30 came out better than some of the "manufacturer's " oils that cost a lot more per quart.
HHHMMMMMMM, Imagine that????? :p
 
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