Help on vacation! Turn key and nothing happens - wait awhile and it'll turn over?

[grossgary]

New person, Hi! On vacation and would love to get this boat running, this is my first time ever using a boat, though I have been working on this one for the past week or two and test drove it Saturday at home.

I've looked through no-start threads but haven't found this situation.

1978 Johnson 115 Engine will turn over and if it doesn't start it gradually turns slower and slower.

Add jumper cables/another battery and it doesn't help so it's not the battery.
Eventually it won't turn over at all, turn the key and you get nothing.

If you wait awhile (15-45 minutes) - it'll start (PUN!) all over again....turns over...gets slower and slower, then nothing.

If you get it all just right and get it to turn over on the first or second try (rare) it runs fine.

I copied down the master starting thread here and want to look at the ignition switch and work back from there.

*** One problem I have is that I have no idea how to remove the ignition switch - 1978 Glastron and i've got all the screws removed that are obvious but the two halves holding the switch in place won't come apart?

 

[RogersJetboat454]

Re: Help on vacation! Turn key and nothing happens - wait awhile and it'll turn over?

New person, Hi! On vacation and would love to get this boat running, this is my first time ever using a boat, though I have been working on this one for the past week or two and test drove it Saturday at home.

I've looked through no-start threads but haven't found this situation.

1978 Johnson 115 Engine will turn over and if it doesn't start it gradually turns slower and slower.

Add jumper cables/another battery and it doesn't help so it's not the battery.
Eventually it won't turn over at all, turn the key and you get nothing.

If you wait awhile (15-45 minutes) - it'll start (PUN!) all over again....turns over...gets slower and slower, then nothing.

If you get it all just right and get it to turn over on the first or second try (rare) it runs fine.

I copied down the master starting thread here and want to look at the ignition switch and work back from there.

*** One problem I have is that I have no idea how to remove the ignition switch - 1978 Glastron and i've got all the screws removed that are obvious but the two halves holding the switch in place won't come apart?

Welcome to Iboats

Before you start ripping apart ignition switches, let's start with the basics. You need to disassemble, clean, and inspect your battery connections (both at the battery and the attachment points at the engine). While you're at it, if there's auto parts store near by, have your battery tested, especially if it isn't brand new. Also if you are discharging the battery, you need to be charging it back up, or else you risk damaging your battery and compounding your starting dilemma.

Also check to be sure that there are no garbage looking connections on the engine, frayed wires, etc.

 

[HighTrim]

Re: Help on vacation! Turn key and nothing happens - wait awhile and it'll turn over?

Agreed, the problem is not your switch.

Faulty wiring/connections, or faulty battery. Have it fully charged and load tested. If the wires are nicked, cut, or frayed replace them. If they "crunch" when you flex them, they are internally corroded. Voltage drop test would isolate faulty wiring. Those connections need to be shiny and tight, take them off and file them. Dont forget the main engine ground.

let us know what you find.

 

[grossgary]

Re: Help on vacation! Turn key and nothing happens - wait awhile and it'll turn over?

thanks!

i ruled out the battery, with alternate power sources, another battery, jumper cables, and it didn't change anything. that being said - thanks for mentioning - auto parts store did test it and said it was fine. connections all look clean, it's a 3 year old battery and looks nearly new.

i can't see any connections inside the throttle/ignition box. if there are grounds/connections in there then they might be sketchy but I can't get the throttle box apart to check. all external screws, lower cover plate, and throttle/choke (or starting, whatever it's called) handle are both removed. still can't split the box - it is vertically split?

 

[grossgary]

Re: Help on vacation! Turn key and nothing happens - wait awhile and it'll turn over?

really - not the ignition switch? interesting.

i'll try looking at the engine wiring again, i didn't look over that as much as the rest of the wiring.

when should i have 12 volts at the starter - when i turn the key?
can i do a simple jump the starter test - how would i jump that solenoid to try and start it? (might be a good thing to know anyway)

this scenario happens like clock work - it is not intermittent or changes - it is very predictable and happens the same way every single time....

 

[daselbee]

Re: Help on vacation! Turn key and nothing happens - wait awhile and it'll turn over?

Not the ignition switch.

You have a choke, not a primer solenoid...I am guessing. Pretty sure choke.

Take the hood off. Look on the starboard side, just behind the air silencer unit, for a lever that manually engages the choke. Engage it.
Try start. If it pops over, you must look at the choking system, and the fact that the choke doesn't engage when you push the key in to start.

You are pushing the key in while trying to start, right?

EDIT: YOu split that control box and you are really opening a can of worms that you don't need to open.

 

[RogersJetboat454]

Re: Help on vacation! Turn key and nothing happens - wait awhile and it'll turn over?

thanks!
connections all look clean, it's a 3 year old battery and looks nearly new.

Looks can be deceiving. Take them apart and clean them anyway. As High Trim said, be especially certain to flex and check the battery cables. All it takes is for 1 battery leaking acid that wicks up in the cable, or a cable that has been exposed to the elements for a long time to create resistance in the cable. When you crank the engine over placing a load on the cables, if they are nackered, or undersized they will start getting warm, and electrical theory 101 says as temperature increases, resistance follows suit.

 

[grossgary]

Re: Help on vacation! Turn key and nothing happens - wait awhile and it'll turn over?

copy guys. i did check/clean battery terminal connectors.

and electrical theory 101 says as temperature increases, resistance follows suit.

right on, i've seen it before in other applications. i was hoping to measure voltage at the engine somewhere so as to rule out the wiring? i'm all into fuel injected stuff - this carb/choke stuff is foreign to me so not sure how to measure at the engine.

will check wiring later.

 

[grossgary]

Re: Help on vacation! Turn key and nothing happens - wait awhile and it'll turn over?

Hey Rogersjetboat - I see you have a 1976 Glastron - this is a1978 Glastron. Thanks for the help all, we'll see what happens.

 

[daselbee]

Re: Help on vacation! Turn key and nothing happens - wait awhile and it'll turn over?

Gary...you are overthinking it.

Take this to the bank......you can disconnect the harness completely from the motor, and it will run just fine. In fact that is a valid troubleshooting trick....just disconnect the harness at the big red plug.

So, looking for some +12 volts that is not present at some imaginary place on the motor is futile.

Disconnect the harness at the big red plug. Crank/spin the motor directly with jumper cables between the battery and starter, bypassing all else on the engine. I bet you have the same results. (Unless you choke it...)

You gotta give it some gas. You do that by choking it. If all else fails, take a water bottle, fill it half way with premix gas, punch holes in the top, and spray it into the carb throat while cranking. I bet it pops over just fine.

You avoided answering the question of whether you are pushing the key in while attempting the start....why?

 

[grossgary]

Re: Help on vacation! Turn key and nothing happens - wait awhile and it'll turn over?

i will reassemble the throttle/control area. it's really that much of a debacle?

Crank/spin the motor directly with jumper cables between the battery and starter, bypassing all else on the engine. I bet you have the same results. (Unless you choke it...)

can you explain how the choke keeps the engine from turning over, i mean simply spinning, not starting? i totally understand not "starting" - but the engine not even turning over or moving is new to me. i have never seen an automotive motor that (massive mechanical failure aside) won't turn over when the starter turns. that's why i was wondering about power.

You avoided answering the question of whether you are pushing the key in while attempting the start....why?

i was pushing the key in. this ignition has the interesting "feature" where it won't turn or push in if you put the key all the way in...so you have to hold it a hair before "all the way in" and then push the ignition in with your other hand...i remember doing that circus act.

there was a problem with the choke lever and my buddy made a new bracket due to the broken plastic bracket, i'll check that choke in the morning and try to manually choke it if needed, (it does have a manual choke too).

is there such a thing as "too much choke"? just checking since we know i won't get this thing started quickly!

 

[busted-bayliner]

Re: Help on vacation! Turn key and nothing happens - wait awhile and it'll turn over?

unplug the big red wiring harness plug at the engine then run jumper cables from batt to the ground on the engine block an touch the hot side of the starter with the pos of the jumper cable see what happens almost sounds like a ground problem

 

[daselbee]

Re: Help on vacation! Turn key and nothing happens - wait awhile and it'll turn over?

I mis-read your post. I did not get that the engine was not turning over. I thought all along that it just wouldn't start.
Of course the choke cannot prevent that "engine spinning".

So, back to the drawing board.

Turn key to on position and make sure you have +12v on the purple wire at the switch.
Probe at the starter solenoid with a test light or your meter. The point to probe is one of the two small screws on the side of the solenoid.
It will be the small screw that has a yellow/red wire attached. That wire will go hot to 12v when the key is turned to start position.
The other terminal will have a black wire or wires on it, and they are ground.

If you have all that, the starter solenoid should click and of course the starter should spin.
If no click, use your jumper cable to jump directly across the two large studs on each side of the solenoid. It will spark and the starter should spin. Do not be surprised.

If it works now, you have a solenoid problem or a ground problem at the solenoid.

If it still doesn't work, jump directly from the battery to the large positive lead on the starter itself. If still not work, starter is bad, or again there may be a faulty ground.

 

[daselbee]

Re: Help on vacation! Turn key and nothing happens - wait awhile and it'll turn over?

Your first post says this:

"1978 Johnson 115 Engine will turn over and if it doesn't start it gradually turns slower and slower."

This to me is a turning engine that won't start and eventually runs the batt down...

Where am I misunderstanding this issue?

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: Help on vacation! Turn key and nothing happens - wait awhile and it'll turn over?

it sounds like you have a bad battery or a bad connection somewhere. putting a million batteries with jumper cables wont help if you have a bad connection.

start by taking the battery and cleaning the connections. also if you can, have it load tested. at a minimum, make sure that the battery has 12.7 volts. you stated the auto parts store did this, so lets assume the battery is ok.

then clean each and every connection between the battery and the engine. dont just wiggle the wires. actually clean the connections.

now follow the trouble shooting in post 13.

 

[grossgary]

Re: Help on vacation! Turn key and nothing happens - wait awhile and it'll turn over?

Your first post says this:

"1978 Johnson 115 Engine will turn over and if it doesn't start it gradually turns slower and slower."

This to me is a turning engine that won't start and eventually runs the batt down...

Where am I misunderstanding this issue?

right on - typing stinks, i'm sure you guys could knock this out in about 7 minutes. keep reading past that first sentence. i was describing the symptoms and you just read the first sentence. if it was just the battery this would be easy, i'm a car guy so batteries are easy. when i say it turns slower and slower - i mean immediately...like after trying to start it twice, it runs down really quick, too quick to be a dying battery. BUT...keep reading:

it does this regardless of swapping in another battery, jumping off another battery, etc - the symptoms do not change - so there is something keeping the starter from turning (i think?). obviously if it was dying battery then swapping in another would fix it - but it doesn't.

try to start...turning over....slowing down....won't turn over at all (that all happens very quick, not with multiple/many attempts like normal).....then put another battery on and it still won't turn at all or really slow, the symptoms do not change with fresh juice.

i'll try the jumping it thing - though i'm not real familiar with which contacts to ground, etc - so thanks for the description, will give that a try.

 

[64osby]

Re: Help on vacation! Turn key and nothing happens - wait awhile and it'll turn over?

Any chance the starter needs a rebuild or replacement? How hot does it get when your trying to start it?

May try pulling the plugs and see if the starter will turn the motor over and not slowly spin to a halt. My .02

Do you have a pull cord for it, mine has a cord tucked under the cowl, you could try and pull start it. Not easy but possible.

 

[grossgary]

Re: Help on vacation! Turn key and nothing happens - wait awhile and it'll turn over?

no pull cord. i'm not well versed on how boats/starters work but i think the next step is to:

1. test if the starter is powered when the key is turned as mentioned above
2. test if the starter operates when powered

 

[grossgary]

Re: Help on vacation! Turn key and nothing happens - wait awhile and it'll turn over?

*** Update, I think y'all are getting really close now:

Starter turned fine.

If no click, use your jumper cable to jump directly across the two large studs on each side of the solenoid. It will spark and the starter should spin.

1. The top stud had power.
*** 2. When I jumped between the two large studs nothing happened? ***

So the bottom wire between the starter and solenoid is bad? I'll try and test some more but am not 100% sure what to look for.

The starter jumped fine so that may suggest it's grounded okay?

 

[grossgary]

Re: Help on vacation! Turn key and nothing happens - wait awhile and it'll turn over?

it looks like the original question of this thread is *solved*. it now turns over like normal. although it didn't start the brief try i gave it, i had to go since wife/kids were waiting so didn't try long. but at least the thing turns over now. so i guess it could still be intermittent and the issue just didn't show itself that one time.

i bought a new battery and am charging the old. i also pulled the starter and solenoid. *** as a few folks mentioned - some of the connections were loose - the starter nut and one solenoid nut was loose***

i guess it's possible there's still some wonky electrical issue that just didn't show itself the one time i tried to turn it over but it looks like cleaning and tightening those connections may have solved the issue.

*I think jumping the studs didn't work simply because of that loose starter nut. it wasn't even hand tight.