Gel Cell Battery Problems

stauter99

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jan 20, 2003
Messages
130
I have a Gel Cell deep cycle orbital battery that is about 1 1/2 years old. It has been doing great, but latley it hasnt been doing so well. I have an automatic battery charger and when I hook up the clamps and turn it on the meter reads between 2 and 4 amps. It never changes. It charged all day yesterday and still was the same. I tried the battery out and it still didnt have much use left in it. When the battery used to be low and I would hook it up, The arrow woudl go all the way down to ten, then work back up untill fully charged. I did accidently run the battery down very very low the other day. I use it just to run my stereo in my boat.
 

stauter99

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jan 20, 2003
Messages
130
Re: Gel Cell Battery Problems

P.S. Its not the charger cause I just replaced it thinking it was the problem.
 

SeaDawg

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 3, 2001
Messages
418
Re: Gel Cell Battery Problems

Do you have the proper charger for a gel cell battery? <br /><br />They are very picky on chargers, that's why I am looking at getting an AGM battery for my next one.
 

stauter99

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jan 20, 2003
Messages
130
Re: Gel Cell Battery Problems

I just have a regular 10AMP Automatic Charger. Woops!
 

cobra 3.0

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
1,797
Re: Gel Cell Battery Problems

Running a battery completely dead is very hard on a battery. Your battery maybe toast! A 10 amp charger is perfect for almost all recharging of these types of batteries (regular, hybrid, deep cycle).
 

SeaDawg

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 3, 2001
Messages
418
Re: Gel Cell Battery Problems

Cobra, from what I have read, you do NOT want to use a regular battery charger with gel batteries, it will ruin them. the voltage level is too high for them.<br /><br />This is from the West Marine catalog "advice section", I've never owned one.
 

18rabbit

Captain
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
Messages
3,202
Re: Gel Cell Battery Problems

Cobra – a 3-stage charger is not ‘required’ but is definitely a good idea for gel, AGM or flooded lead-acid batteries…basically anything that would be used in boating.<br /><br />EDIT: 3-stage is the minimum…some charging systems have as many as 12-stages. They manage the slope for voltage raise or decay between the 3-stages and stuff like that. Anything over 3-stages (plus equalizing voltage for flooded) is lost on me. Pass on the 2-stage chargers.
 

airman

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 9, 2003
Messages
332
Re: Gel Cell Battery Problems

From my understanding, it's not really the number of stages that matters. A "staged" charger is able to charge faster but that's not the concern here. The important part is the maximum voltage applied. Flooded cells will accept a higher voltage safely so we use the higher voltage to charge faster. This concern also applies to the alternator. It does no good to use a great charger to care for your batteries then overcharge them when you start the engine. I personally prefer flooded batteries. They're cheaper and lighter than either gel or AGM and they take charging abuse much better. Hope this helps.
 

18rabbit

Captain
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
Messages
3,202
Re: Gel Cell Battery Problems

Airman – I absolutely agree with you both on the shortcomings of an alternator and on the choice of flooded cell batteries. Most alternators are not capable of providing a full charge to a battery. Anyone that depends solely on their alternator to maintain a starting battery is almost guaranteed to be living a fantasy. Alternators are getting better but they lack the sophisticated electronics to manage the charging cycles.<br /><br />Several companies make smart regulators that fit in between the alternator’s output and the battery to control the charging function so that a full charge can be obtained.<br /><br />There are 3 primary stages to charging a flooded battery:<br /><br />- Bulk charge , stage 1: pump as many amps as possible, as fast as possible, without frying the battery. As a charge is put back into the battery, the voltage rises and starts resisting the incoming current when at about 80% capacity. Many alternators cannot manage their charging voltage and simply reduce the amps at this point and never get past charging a battery to 80-85% capacity.<br /><br />- Accept charge , stage 2: increases voltage to overcome the resistance of the battery and reduce the amps. Typically takes a battery up to about 95% of the its capacity.<br /><br />- Float charge , stage 3: a.k.a. trickle charge…drops the amps further, and increases the voltage higher. It tops off the battery at 100% of its capacity. Most 3-stage charging systems have the ability to shut down charging and monitor the battery’s voltage until it drops to 1% or 2% of the battery’s capacity, then switch the float charge back on as needed. Not all 2-stage charge have this auto off/on function…but that isn’t always a problem if the float charge is outputting amps at about 1% or less of the battery’s capacity. In that case it can be left on indefinitely.<br /><br />Managing the charge with these 3 stages is the minimum of what it takes to get a battery to 100% charge without damaging it. A 2-stage charger omits the mid stage, the ‘accept’ charge. The faster you can get a battery back to 100% capacity, the better. Anything less and sulfur from the sulfuric acid is bonding to the lead plates inside. A sealed battery’s advantage during use is also its disadvantage during charging.<br /><br />A forth charging stage, the equalizing charge , is better describes as electroshock therapy for the battery. It is very high voltage with appropriate amps applied to a fully charged battery. The battery can’t accept the charge, but the voltage is enough to physically remove the build up of sulfur that naturally forms on the lead with normal discharging of the battery. The greater the discharge and the longer a battery stays there, the more it is a candidate for equalizing charge voltage. Equalizing causes serious off gassing from the battery and should never be done to AGM, gel, or other sealed batteries.<br /><br />Having just said never do it, I have read that is it possible to take a dead gel battery and apply the equalizing voltage for a short period and that will inevitably bring the gel battery back to life, and it will begin accepting and holding a charge with only a minor loss of capacity. Stauter99’s battery may be a candidate for this because it’s not that old. Also, a lot of flooded batteries discarded as dead can be brought back to usable life with equalizing as well.
 

louisp

Cadet
Joined
Oct 15, 2003
Messages
25
Re: Gel Cell Battery Problems

I just rebuilt a boat and put on a new 4 stroke Suzuki DF70, hydraulic steering, the works- so I wanted a top notch battery and decided on a orbital gel-cell that Boater's World carried. When I went to buy it they discouraged me, trying to sell me a regular type at 50 bucks less! They said they've had an unusual amount of returns due to motors that overcharge or don't regulate the charge circuit, which the orbital battery can't handle (their words). He said they "strongly suggest" some kind of charge limiting device when installing them. Judging from the previous post, I wonder if it's just an inherent gel-cell problem with repeated 80-85% charges. Since the last thing I need is a tempermental- expensive battery, it now looks like I'll go with an AGM (absorded glass mat) type, which doesn't need a special charger and is superior to regular plate technology (or is it?). A decent website with plenty of info is batterystuff.com!! As a minimum, get your pro-rated refund and shop around. Hope this helps.
 

airman

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 9, 2003
Messages
332
Re: Gel Cell Battery Problems

Runaground - I'm sure the rabbit will hop in here too but I think the answer to your question is, "it depends". AGM's do have advantages but they've got some significant cons, too. For the record, I still use flooded batteries and I don't think I'll be switching soon. Flooded, serviceable batteries (ie you can add water) are hard to beat, but only if you take care of them. They self discharge a little faster so you need to top up the charge occasionally over the winter, either manually or with a smart charger. They are also a little more sensitive to vibration, or so I've read. On the other hand they are lighter (for the power they store), cheaper and more abuse-tolerant (from a charging abuse point of view) than either Gels or AGM's. Light, cheap and abuse tolerant are very tough to come by in one product, and especially in boats. The only real reason I can see for choosing the gels or AGM's is if you need to install it in a really tight location where servicing is difficult or it needs to be on its side. Flooded batteries must be installed upright (boat heel is generally OK) and they must be serviced regularly. Why are you wanting the AGM's? Consider why you are spending the extra $ and what you expect to get for it. Also make sure that you modify your charging system to properly care for them or you will get very little of the value from you battery.
 

cobra 3.0

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
1,797
Re: Gel Cell Battery Problems

I'm using a maintenance-free, hybrid type called Voyager Marine/RV deepcycle battery by Delco. It has plenty of cranking amps to turn over your motor and can still be used extensively with electric items such as trolling motors, lighting, etc. A regular automatic 10 amp charger does the trick. ;) <br /><br /> http://www.acdelco.com/html/pi_batt_sea_rea.htm
 

SeaDawg

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 3, 2001
Messages
418
Re: Gel Cell Battery Problems

I'm looking at getting a small (U size) AGM for my 12 foot Carolina Skiff, just because I can stick it in a cooler, run the wires out the drain hole, and not have to worry about acid eating everyting up durig a day of fishing. The cooler is also the seat, dry box, store everything except fish container, and space is a premium on this size boat, and the light weight of the U size AGM helps too.
 

louisp

Cadet
Joined
Oct 15, 2003
Messages
25
Re: Gel Cell Battery Problems

Thanks for the input Airman (and everyone). My situation is I have a restricted access area that also contains my fill hose, gas tank, fuel filter, and all my electrical. As this is a sufficient recipe for disaster already, I didn't want to add an explosive and corrosive battery gas for safety purposes and hopeful to extend the life of my electrical system. I have had sealed "maintenance free" (that's a hoot) batteries before but they were vented and off-gassed, so I thought the AGM could be my answer!? Plus my new/old boat is a semi-flat bottom (Kenner Pro Skiff) that produces significant vibration, which the AGM touts to handle better. I don't mind spending the extra money for cheap insurance (I mean, it is my boat) and thought this is the best technology available, although then again I was about to buy a gel-cell (which not many on this site seem to recommend). Is AGM the new wave? I'm usually the one to resist change but do I LOVE my 4-stroke and hydraulic steering, which were also decisions based on what I learned here! So thank you all again for an education, your knowledge, and your willingness to share your experiences- LP.
 

airman

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 9, 2003
Messages
332
Re: Gel Cell Battery Problems

It sounds like you might be a good candidate for the gel or AGM technology. I still like the flooded cells though - can you enclose and vent the battery overboard? Contrary to what 18rabbit says, I think your biggest problem will be overcharging from the alternator. You need to make sure it doesn't put out more than 13.5 volts or so (I can't remember the exact number but you can't exceed it without damaging the batteries and forcing them to vent.) You should also get a good charger that can be set for your type of battery. That's why I like the flooded cells. By the time you've spent all the $ to by a gel and the equipment to care for it you could have bought 4 flooded batteries and a cheap charger. If it overcharges a little, so what? Add a little more water and you're good to go. Same with the vibration issue, and I know the flooded cells will last quite a while anyways.<br /><br />18Rabbit - not looking for a fight here but unless a lot of time is spent running the battery down (drifting or at anchor), most alternators put out 14+ volts which will overcharge any battery. I think you are thinking more along the lines of a large cruiser's house bank, where you are entirely correct, most alternators won't ever make a full charge.
 

airman

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 9, 2003
Messages
332
Re: Gel Cell Battery Problems

It's in my last post, but not that obvious - If you overcharge a gel or an AGM they will vent too, just like your "maintenance free" battery. Baking soda is good for neutralizing the acid. Sprinkle some in the battery box and the fumes will react with it instead of eating holes in other stuff.
 
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