Future of used boat sales

[CWCW]

I know there is not perfect answer to this question but i would like to see your opinions based on the trends and waves that the EPA is causing in all outboard manufactors. If you were going to buy a new boat now, and you had a chance to go 4stroke or 2 stroke carb in the 50 to 90hp range, and kept the boat 10 years, which would sell easier in 10 yrs? Would the 10year old boat sell easier with a 4stroke vs. the 2 stroke carb motor? I know this will not be the only boat i own and i dont want to be stuck trying to sell a boat that wont sell 10yrs from now cause it has a 2 stroke carb motor on it. Since we are seeing a slow elimination of the 2 stroke carb motors, and more full line 4 strokes of any class in the major brands (Merc and Yamaha), what would you do? Im not interested in DI two strokes so they dont apply.

 

[WTL]

Re: Future of used boat sales

Don't know the full answer, but in my neck of the woods people want the used 2 strokes instead of new 4 strokes. The 4 strokes have a long way to go to get anywhere close to the weight to hp ratio of the 2 cycles, and that is a big, big deal especially on smaller boats. I have a friend who has a new 15 hp 4 cycle on a 12' boat and he can't get the thing to plane right its so out of whack weight wise.

 

[dcg9381]

Re: Future of used boat sales

I'd say one way to predict is to look at the motorcross / off road bike market.
Most major manufacturers no longer make 125 or 250cc 2-strokes. The only difference is that the 4 strokes are actually more powerful, but at the cost of slightly more weight. It's not just EPA, it's rules that allow running a 250cc 2-stroke or a 450cc 4-stroke in the same class. The 4-strokes have an advantage.

The two stroke market has taken a big hit in terms of value of 2-stroke motorcycles. There are people that still want them for simplicity and easy of maintaining them, but they're generally devalued - at least in my area.

California may be an exception as my understanding is that you couldn't sell them there, you can bring them in, but couldn't buy them there for the last several years.

 

[tommays]

Re: Future of used boat sales

In a very general way boats allready take a big hit when they reach repower time as most peolple are not thrilled about droping 8000 to 20000 dollars on a motor


With the cost of the ECM or what ever you chose to call it and the fact that there are allready NLA ECM marine motors the future is shaky on the vibality of repiars as we are use to now


Sept 2008 is allready a big worry for all

 

[CWCW]

Re: Future of used boat sales

Don't know the full answer, but in my neck of the woods people want the used 2 strokes instead of new 4 strokes. The 4 strokes have a long way to go to get anywhere close to the weight to hp ratio of the 2 cycles, and that is a big, big deal especially on smaller boats. I have a friend who has a new 15 hp 4 cycle on a 12' boat and he can't get the thing to plane right its so out of whack weight wise.

Yeah im not sure i believe alot of that "weight" issue. Im not saying your friend is not having a weight problem, but he is in a 12' boat. 12' boats have little hull weight to begin with so i could see it being a problem on a boat that size. But the company of boat i am looking at (Lowe) says their hulls are built to handle the extra weight of the 4 stroke motors, and i have yet to see a pic online or in a brochure that has one of these boats with anything other than a 4 stroke. It also scares me that on the Mercury website they have no 2 stroke carb motors listed to be still in production. I think the ones i am seeing in the dealers floor are leftovers that are soon to be extinct once they are bought up.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Future of used boat sales

The two stroke/four stroke bike arguement doesn't hold water. There is no multi-gear transmission in a boat so the playing field is very different. Two strokes have a hole shot advantage in boats in most cases. Currently, two strokes rule when it comes to outboards. As for the future, the economy, regulations, cost, and other performance characteristics will determine what survives or emerges in the future. One thing you can be assured of, carbed two strokes will continue to lose favor because they are/will no longer be manufactured. When products are no longer manufactured parts and service availability begin to get more costly and difficult (OMC sterndrives comes to mind). It is therefore inevitable that in 10 years, a carbed two stroke sitting next to an identical boat with a four stroke or other motor that is currently emissions legal, will likely have much less value as the areas it can be used will continue to diminish. I just bought a new pontoon and would have loved to had a two stroke (carbed or otherwise). But since this scenario is unfolding as we speak, I elected to power it with a Suzy 4-stroke. E-tecs were this anything but a pontoon, it would have been powered by E-tec.

 

[CWCW]

Re: Future of used boat sales

In a very general way boats allready take a big hit when they reach repower time as most peolple are not thrilled about droping 8000 to 20000 dollars on a motor


With the cost of the ECM or what ever you chose to call it and the fact that there are allready NLA ECM marine motors the future is shaky on the vibality of repiars as we are use to now


Sept 2008 is allready a big worry for all

Tommmays,
Sorry but i didnt catch your meaning on the second paragraph. (vibality of repairs) Are you saying with the outboard containing ECM's the repairs will lessen?

 

[CWCW]

Re: Future of used boat sales

Silvertip,
That is EXACTLLY what i was looking for! You hit the nail on the head. You were in the same predicament when you bought your pontoon. Im looking at my ease in selling in the future. This will be my first boat and it is an aluminum boat. I dont want a small fiberglass boat now and the bigger bass boats are out of my price range now, but im sure my next boat will be a larger fiberglass bass boat and i want to be able to sell the aluminum boat without people thinking there is a dinosaur bolted on the back of it.

 

[tommays]

Re: Future of used boat sales

Any marine ECM and the parts it runs outboard OR inboard are high dollar parts

While they generaly last a really long time they will die at some point and the issue will be price and if it is NLA


As the rules just say SI (spark ignition)i have to wonder what will hapen after they get the marine catalytic converters fully going on the inboards, what that will mean on Outboards

 

[CWCW]

Re: Future of used boat sales

Wow. Catalytic converters? Whats next? Maybe by the time I retire (35yrs) we will have electric motors to fly around on. The two stroke guys gripe about the extra weight that the 4 strokes have now, but one day we will have 4 stroke guys griping about the extra weight of the size of a electric motor and the batteries it would take to push a bass boat 60mph across the lake. hahahaha!

 

[WTL]

Re: Future of used boat sales

You have to remember I'm talking about a specific niche here. Small fishing boats that are meant to be run relatively cheap. Longevity and, dare I say it resale value (what the original poster was primarily asking about I take it) are for this type of boat less of a concern. I want something that will get me through the next few fishing seasons without using much gas, losing lots of money in depreciation, ect, ect. 2 cycles used outboards do that for me.

If electric outboards were viable and cheap I wouldn't have a problem with them, but theres a reason why most arent powering their boat with these yet. Its the same debate taken from cars and applied to boats. People want better milage, cleaner vehicles, but right now we just don't have the perfected technology to make everybody happy. So choose.

 

[CWCW]

Re: Future of used boat sales

I was just joking and being sarcastic about the electric motors. Its plain to see that electric motors arent capable of the same things that outboard motors are. I understand what you say about people where you live buying used 2 stroke outboards but i just dont like the thought of used motors. There are many people who take care of their toys but there are also very many that dont take care of their toys. Im just lerie of getting a motor that has been run "balls to the wall" at WOT every day of the summer and not to mention not doing proper maintance on it. Thats why im going new and im thinking of going 4 stroke so i can resale 10yrs down the road.

 

[jaxnjil]

Re: Future of used boat sales

i'll try to find and post a link but till i do i read some place that the national park service is going to out law most pwc 2 strokes on lake powell in 2012

http://www.wayneswords.com/cgi-bin/wwlprecreation.pl?read=31130

I've heard that two stroke motors or motors that don't
> meet some emissions standard are going to be outlawed
> on all lakes someday. Does anyone know when Lake
> Powell is going to ban them? Where does it say so?

> Thanks.

I was told by the NPS that non direct injected 2 stroke
outboards will be banned on 1/1/2023. After that date only
Yamaha HPDI, Mercury Optimax and Evinrude Etec 2 strokes
will be allowed on the lake.

2 stroke PWCs will be banned as of 1/1/2013. I have not
seen any of this info in writing anywhere. All could
change if the democrats win the presidency and congress.

4 stroke outboards will also be allowed. We made sure our
recent boat purchase ('98 Crestliner) had an Optimax for
this reason).
here is the link if you have a hour or to to read it
http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-IMPACT/2003/September/Day-26/i24363.htm

 

[eastern27]

Re: Future of used boat sales

Yeah im not sure i believe alot of that "weight" issue. Im not saying your friend is not having a weight problem, but he is in a 12' boat. 12' boats have little hull weight to begin with so i could see it being a problem on a boat that size. But the company of boat i am looking at (Lowe) says their hulls are built to handle the extra weight of the 4 stroke motors, and i have yet to see a pic online or in a brochure that has one of these boats with anything other than a 4 stroke. It also scares me that on the Mercury website they have no 2 stroke carb motors listed to be still in production. I think the ones i am seeing in the dealers floor are leftovers that are soon to be extinct once they are bought up.

My buddy runs a 17ft Lowe with a 40 hp Evinrude (Suzuki), nice rig. Really quiet which is a big plus, a bit more in the maintenance dept. I'd go with the 4 stroke. They have been around long enough to get the bugs worked out. I think in the end the newest most reliable technology is the most saleable. If you were going to buy a used 8-10 year old 2 stroke would you go for carbs or fuel injection? Same principle.

 

[Solittle]

Re: Future of used boat sales

Lets use our experience here at iboats. There seem to be plenty of folk who do their own work now on 2 cycle ob that are 10 or more years old. Lets say that two guys buy a new ob today. One buys a 2 cycle carbed 4 cyinder ob. The other guy buys a 4 cycle 4 cylinder ob. Which guy will be able to work on his motor 10 years from now and have no or little problem finding parts?

10 years ago I could change the plugs in my car. Today I can't even see them.

 

[External Combustion]

Re: Future of used boat sales

My favorite boat has no worries as to the 2 stroke/4 stroke debate. The only worry I have with it is the Ringold Scale as I warm it up. Steam is that way you know. My sailboat also has no worries, yet......my playtoys are old, small kickers.

What I do know is that politicians are open to graft. The "greenies" that do not do their homework presently has the politicians attention because they have contributed to the re-election campaigns of many. If those of us who are actively involved in the industry with our own boats would form a PAC or two and out corrupt the greenies, then those silly uneducated EPA rules will not take place. It is all about money in the pols hands.

Make no mistake, it has nothing to do with well reasearched, well reasoned environmental policy. If it did then dumping ballast water out of tankers would have been outlawed in the 1970's when we first knew that they contained Zebra mussels. It was not politically expedient to tell the Nigerians and others to dump the ballast ten miles out at sea. That might have slowed the delivery of campaign contributions.

Think this out, get upset enough to act and do so.

 

[CWCW]

Re: Future of used boat sales

I would not go as far as to say that the EPA is uneducated or that they have uneducated plans, rules or regulations. The fact that we pollute our surroundings is silly. They are just here to limit how much we pollute and if they have better options to limit polluting our environment, then im all for it. I understand that not everyone is concerned with the next generations of people having to deal with our pollution that we are causing today, but i wonder what type of long term impact the pollution will do to the fish that we go to the lakes and rivers for in the first place? Just my opinion.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Future of used boat sales

Can't speak for smaller boats but in my circle (near shore/ offshore guys-150 HP plus) you can't give a carbed 2 stroke away and it's getting harder and harder to even give a EFi away. Even the DFi are taking depreciation hits when compared to the 4 strokes.

The guys running 4 strokes are not spending $1000s a year in maintenance like forecasted by the 2 stroke fans and the longevity of these motors are making make them an overwhelming favorite with the crowd.

I know 3 guys running F225 Yamaha with over 2000 hours on their motors. None of them have required anything more than normal preventative maintenance. There are lots of commercial guys claiming in excess of 5000- 6000 hours on 4 strokes. Try getting those numbers out of a 2 stroke.