fuel effiency and fuel prices.

[rolmops]

As some of you may know I have been in Europe in December and I did see a lot of things that are dealt with in a different way than they are here.
One thing is fuel prices. In the Netherlands one liter (roughly a quarter gallon) of gasoline costs 1.60 Euro ($2.40) or about $9 per gallon.
So they look for alternative fuels for their cars and one thing that is very popular is LPG (liguid petroleum gas).which costs about 60 euro cents per liter and compared to diesel or gasoline is hardly a pollutant.
Both my brothers who live in Holland and Sweden have switched to LPG.They had a conversion kit installed and that was their only extra expense compared to regular gas.When asked about performance,they said that although LPG is supposed to weaken engine performance it is so little that they did not even feel it and probably only race cars would feel the difference.
I am thinking about doing the same to my car here in NY state,but I wonder whether LPG is available at the pump anywhere and how the prices here compare to regular gas.
Do you guys know of anyone who did this and how it worked for them?
Please let me know.

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

a lot of utility and gas companies do it. some cities.

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

The companies that sell and deliver propane here run their trucks on propane via a conversion system.

I doubt a newer car would handle it due to all the computers involved and they would have to be re-programmed..... now a carbed car would run fine.

Google it and there is tons of info.

 

[QC]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

Some of you know this is kinda what I do. We convert heavy trucks to natural gas, but the concepts are the same. LPG actually has higher octane than gasoline so it can be used in higher compression engines. However, because it is delivered at low pressures and is gaseous it actually displaces some of the available air, that is why there is a slight performance penalty. The fact is that a properly running gasoline engine is probably cleaner than a properly converted LPG car . . . They usually end up with more unburnt Hydrocarbons and can actually make emissions poorer. The fact is that the claims are usually made based on very poor carb'd engines being converted and also based on big assumptions and also because it may decrease one component of what is really a soup of components that make up exhaust.

LPG is a by product of petroleum refining and is also found with natural gas. It is often used as a "spike" to natural gas in the winter and it is easily transported so it is used to heat and cook in remote places. Because of this the price usually goes up in the winter and down in the summer. The opposite of petroleum, so many engines use both and users switch around when prices favor either fuel.

 

[thefairlaneman]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

The solution to the gasoline problem might be to just bring back the old steam engine. With your car using a steam engine you could drive to work, cook breakfast, and burn your trash at the same time. If you run out of fuel just stop on the side of the road and pick up some road side trash etc and go on your way. I bet our roadsides would quickly become very clean too an added bonus.

 

[oops!]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

sorry guys... im confused....
ive never heard of lpg......

are we talkin...propane...natural gas...or a different product all togeather?

ive got two buddies, one on prop...one on nat...i run diesel...and am lookin for a french fry conversion....

but lpg???? ya lost me

oops

 

[mudmagnet63]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

LPG = propane ( refined by product )
CNG = compressed natural gas
LNG = Natural gas ( reduce temp. to return to a liquid state )

All are being used for auto application.

 

[guy74]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

Liquified Petroleum Gas = LPG = Propane+Butane(around here, they mix propane and butane and market it as LPG) You can convert a fuel injected engine to LPG easier than a carbed engine, just put the mixer in front of the throttlebody and use a switch to shut off the fuel pump. At least that is how it's done on the later model pickups that I've been around that had been converted to run on gas and LPG.

 

[Caveman Charlie]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

I have a LPG/ propane furnace in my house. It's quite common. I know a lot of fleet delivery trucks running on it. You have to have good valves because it burns hot and dry. But, there is no oil contamination and the engine runs much more miles on propane if it is set up right. There used to be kits for pickups during the last gas crunch but, when gas prices fell they went out of favor. You have to have the room to mount a big round tank and it's a little tough to refill the tank as compared to refilling gas or diesel. I'm surprised some of you don't own big boats that run on it? Maybe it's too explosive for that.

 

[oops!]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

perfect...
thank you all

im not sure bout the butane additive here..bc/can....
but prop is aval on every corner

oops

 

[mudmagnet63]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

Butane is not an additive it's just another gas from the refining process. Cigarette Lighters

 

[QC]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

Well almost all gaseous fuels are a blend. Natural Gas can have Ethane, Butane and Propane along with some other 'tanes, the primary constituent is Methane. LPG is another gas mix with usually most being propane, but butane is a common component.

 

[DJ]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

LPG (propane) has about 95% the volumentric efficiency of gasoline. QC is right. It has higher octane but a slight decrease in efficiency.

CNG and LNG (Compressed and Liquified-natural gas) have about 70% the volumetric effieciency of gasoline.

The biggest issues with LNG and CNG is range. In Europe, it's not a big deal. You can drive across the entire continent in a a little over a day.

US automotive CNG systems carry tanks that are at 3600 PSI. The most common automotive tanks are 20 gallon which nets about 200 miles, at best.
Propane is a much better fuel for automotive than LNG or CNG. It is not particularly cleaner than gasoline but it's performance rivals that of gasoline. It does keep the engine cleaner.

Some auto makers offer "injected" propane packages that do meet all EPA standards. Most are offered to fleets only.

 

[mscher]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

Are you sure it would be worth it? I recently paid $2.91/gal for my home propane fill.

Also, I wonder if there are any implications on using a motor fuel that has not had the motor fuel taxes paid.

 

[QC]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

What DJ said . . . BTW, an LPG "blend" of higher butane, ethane etc, can potentially have lower octane than gasoline . . .

It's a BIG problem with our product and LNG. When the good stuff (methane) starts to boil off and vent, the octane goes progressively lower as the percentage of ethane, propane, butane etc. gets higher. We used to run without a knock sensor; not sure why, but we also used to buy a lot of cylinder heads

 

[QC]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

Are you sure it would be worth it? I recently paid $2.91/gal for my home propane fill

Yup, that danged winter messes this deal up every year. Dang it!!!

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

Ethanol and E85 look pretty promising. E85 currently runs about 20 cents cheaper per gallon around here, but instead of being cheaply piped in to the gas stations, they have to deliver it in tanker trucks still, which if enough people used it, they could reverse the two and pipe in E85 and truck in gasoline, that would bring the savings to somewhere between 60-80 cents cheaper than piped gas, although if gas was being trucked, it would be even more expensive so it would look like it was $1 - $1.20 cheaper. It burns a lot cleaner and cooler in the engine, too, so it's a lot better for the vehicle. It's also better in terms of not adding as much to global warming greenhouse gasses, although I have shifted my opinion on global warming, and now think it could be a very good thing if used properly.

 

[puddle jumper]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

Propane has its draw backs in the automotive application.
To start with you have to install a system in your car/truck."If you decide to do this get a shop that specializes in propane". Never get a used system.
Propane systems are a high mateneces fuel systems.
Never try to have a duel fuel system "gas and propane" thay just never run right.
Propane systems are hard starting in cold weather and even freeze up in very cold weather.
You will loss about 10% of your power "Thats why people get high compression engines made up for there trucks."
In BC there's lots of places to fuel up but state side Ive been told its hard to find in some places.
Dont think you will get better millage. Its better to think that you will get about the same mileage for about 1/2 the cost.
As you can tell im not a fan
On the plus side you engine runs cleaner to the point the oil never gets dark.

 

[thefairlaneman]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

If our friends in New Deli can now buy a brand new car for 2500 that gets 50 mph and available to the masses why if we are so smart cant have the same friggin thing? There lies part of the problem.

 

[DJ]

Re: fuel effiency and fuel prices.

If our friends in New Deli can now buy a brand new car for 2500 that gets 50 mph and available to the masses why if we are so smart cant have the same friggin thing? There lies part of the problem.

Lot's of reasons.

1. No EPA.

2. No NHTSA

3. Very few plaintiff attorneys.

4. No A/C.

5. No power windows, locks, seats, am/fm/satellite/cd/MP3.

6. no air bags.

7. No ABS.

8. No AWD or traction control.

Should I go on?