Four stroke carb flaw?

[garyN]

Hi, I am so fed up with the way the carbs on these small yamaha 4 strokes get gummed up I am considering an action or a campaign with Yamaha.

Never have I experienced a product so poorly suited for the job sold. Today, when I was at the dealership taking my 9.9 (2001) back for the 5th cleaning, a fellow with a 2000 25hp was picking his up - "needed a new carb'! This is crazy - carbs don't just go bad. I have 30 year old cars with the originals. I believe the shops are not properly trained and don't have the proper equipment. This guy, a top rated service award winner told me, "Yamaha wants us to use an ultrasound cleaner on these small engine carbs" so, when I asked if he had one his answer was NO. How can you charge $200.00 to clean a carb - when the factory says it cannot be done manually and you don't have the machine!

I really believe this 4 stroke carb technology was rushed to the market and we are all suffering with our wallets -

Anyone who want to join me in this can answer here and if I get enough response I will put together a action to present to Yamaha - at the very least we need to get credits or trade-in vouchers to keep from this nightmare.

Yamaha 4 stroke Hi Thrust outboard are considered the Cream of the Crop on sailboats - but my experience is that I have carried it into the shop more than it has taken me to far away places in my boat.

I sense many are having this problem because almost 50% of the posts here (4 stroke) seem to be dealing with poor running conditions that are likely related to the carbs.

Seems like the newer formula gas play a part - but I didn't buy a product that cannot use the gas sold in my neighborhood.

In the alternative, if anyone has a solution let me know - wonder if SeaFoam really works or if the holes in the carb are simply too small for the forseeable maintance necessary
Thank

 

[jtm71]

Re: Four stroke carb flaw?

Hi, I am so fed up with the way the carbs on these small yamaha 4 strokes get gummed up I am considering an action or a campaign with Yamaha.

Never have I experienced a product so poorly suited for the job sold. Today, when I was at the dealership taking my 9.9 (2001) back for the 5th cleaning, a fellow with a 2000 25hp was picking his up - "needed a new carb'! This is crazy - carbs don't just go bad. I have 30 year old cars with the originals. I believe the shops are not properly trained and don't have the proper equipment. This guy, a top rated service award winner told me, "Yamaha wants us to use an ultrasound cleaner on these small engine carbs" so, when I asked if he had one his answer was NO. How can you charge $200.00 to clean a carb - when the factory says it cannot be done manually and you don't have the machine!

I really believe this 4 stroke carb technology was rushed to the market and we are all suffering with our wallets -

Anyone who want to join me in this can answer here and if I get enough response I will put together a action to present to Yamaha - at the very least we need to get credits or trade-in vouchers to keep from this nightmare.

Yamaha 4 stroke Hi Thrust outboard are considered the Cream of the Crop on sailboats - but my experience is that I have carried it into the shop more than it has taken me to far away places in my boat.

I sense many are having this problem because almost 50% of the posts here (4 stroke) seem to be dealing with poor running conditions that are likely related to the carbs.

Seems like the newer formula gas play a part - but I didn't buy a product that cannot use the gas sold in my neighborhood.

In the alternative, if anyone has a solution let me know - wonder if SeaFoam really works or if the holes in the carb are simply too small for the forseeable maintance necessary
Thank

Some of the problems may be due to the user, no offense. I have a Yamahammar four stroke 40, 1999. It will gum up under two conditions. Not running all the gas out when you don't use it for awhile. Or not treating the gas. Try some new gas, and put SeaFoam in it. The triple carbs can be difficult. But probably doesn't require rebuilding. My tends to run rough for around 5 hrs, if I don't follow my own advice. Your local shop loves to see ya coming, because that's about all their going to do. Blow it out!

 

[garyN]

Re: Four stroke carb flaw?

No offense taken - but the current information from both the dealer and Yamaha is "do not run the carbs dry for storage".

The logic is that some gas remains and that smaller volume will "varnish" or whatever, quicker than if the carb was "wet".

Current advice, leave stabilized fuel in the engine and try to keep all fuel fresh.

I really believe that this is simply a way to cover up the defect of having jets that are simply too small for real world gas. I do not leave or boat in a "clean room".

Last time I had this problem under warranty, Yamaha told me the carbs were so hard/impossible to get clean that they gave me a new one. Now that I am footing the bill I don't want to put a $260.00 part on every season or two.

Additionally, since the jets are "sealed" by California law, the only way to clean the carb is to remove it completely and put it into a ultrasound bath - I checked and that type of cleaning hardware cost about $500.00 - and every dealer who displays Yamaha Authorized Service should have one, or take the sign down. Look, these guys are charging $90.00 per hour!, no wonder that want to go the hand job route.

I have tried everything and at some point in each season the carbs "gums". Then it runs poorly at the 1000rpm mark (the point right at the high and low speed jet hand off).

I just want to know how many others have paid for or had to personally do this cleaning on a 4 stroke - and how often.

I know I can get Yamaha to pay attention if I have some evidence.

 

[JRJ]

Re: Four stroke carb flaw?

I owned a Johnson 15 hp 4stroke for a few years. I ran Chevron gas and didn't have any carb problems. Just wondering if you are running a top tier fuel? Not running carbs dry on 4strokes is the drill. Most carbed engines should be run at least once a month, just to see if they will. My rule, no expert here. But I've never paid for a carburetor rebuild and my stuff starts. Good luck.

 

[Sebrof]

Re: Four stroke carb flaw?

Your preaching to the choir here, garyn, check out my post about a 2001 25hp 4sroke bogging down. It's totally ridiculous that a carb needs to be serviced so often. I have a 1991 Johnson 2 stroke 115 that, for all its other flaws, needs nowhere near the attention to the carbs that my buddies 25 hp yammie does. I wondered why there weren't the usual # of replies to my post but reading on I see that it's just not this motor but seems to be a design flaw. And at 90.00$/hr to look at it ,it just gets too expensive to take it in twice a year for a cleaning.As my grandfather always said, if I wanted a damn fool to do it I would have done it myself. It's a headscratcher fer sure...
Seb

 

[zzzzz]

Re: Four stroke carb flaw?

here in our shop(on any size carbed motor)we DRAIN the carb bowl and blow it out with compressed air...pull off the fuel lines from the fuel pump and blow them out as well as the pump itself...disconnect the fuel line at the front of the motor...and treat the fuel...until they get the technology down to fuel inject the small motors it's what we gotta' do

 

[garyN]

Re: Four stroke carb flaw?

ZZZZZ

That is all well and good, but I am dealing with motors that stay on boats, in the water. Here in Southern California we don't really pull our boats for the season and, in the Marina the engines simply stay on the transom.

What is killing me is that it seems after 90 days without being run, the carbs somehow get messed up internally.

What do you think about how to deal with this situation.

My 2001 has had 2 carbs replaced, a fuel pump replaced and the carb "cleaned" 4 times (and it is in the shop again as we speak for "cleaning").

I only use Mobile gas, cleaned the entire system and replaced with all new gas -- one point, it does run OK at high speed, it is at the 900 RPM mark that the real problem emerege - RPM hunting than stall with hard restart.

To restart the throttle need to be "milked" up and down - shop if the best in the area and says - Yep we are see a lot of this.

It is crazy that it costs more to clean a 4 stroke carb then to replace it!

Please give me your advice and how often you are seeing this on the small 4 stroke Yamaha's.
Thanks

 

[zzzzz]

Re: Four stroke carb flaw?

try using the procedure I mentioned above...hopefully your motor is mounted where you can get to it...if not ya' might have to use a dinghy...purchase/borrow a portable air tank to use-they're always handy to have around anyhow...blow out the bowl,lines and fuel pump as best you can...also-it's not just the Yammies - the Hondas are the same way...we do have an ultrasound tank($900 plus $90 for 5 gals. of cleaner)and they are very good for carbs...try it and give me a report-you can find how to contact me thru my profile

 

[mitir73]

Re: Four stroke carb flaw?

I have a 2000 25hp 4 stroke which ran well till they changed the fuel to ethanol in mass a year ago. after the gas was changed i cant run the engine at the high end without losing power the only way i can keep it running is to slow down or keep pumping the bulb. I have rebuilt the carb replaced fuel filter lines added a fuel separator replaced the main fuel line and the bulb and the fuel pump. i am on my second tank of gas this year and it is starting all over again.
i called up the dealer that i bought my engine from and asked them if they use the ultrasound unit to clean the carbs and they said it was not necessary. The dealer suggested i replace the jets again on a 6 year old engine.
im with you something aint right .

mitir

 

[tommays]

Re: Four stroke carb flaw?

90 day layup and i would be foging my motor and doing a full fuel treatment to protect it from sitting that long ?


And it is pretty much the shelf life of the new fuel blends we are forced to live with



Tommays

 

[garyN]

Re: Four stroke carb flaw?

Here is the Yamaha "secret fix", from the dealer.

Remove the cowling, rev the engine up in neutral, as high a possible, then cover the air intake on the front of the carb and keep it covered until it is really strangled for air and almost stalls. Repeat over, and over in the hope the clog is cleared.

The theory is that the compression of the engine and movement of the pistons will "pull" the dirt out of the struck position on these tiny jets, and pass it.

It can work - had a guy do it for almost an hour and it seemed to clear it up - must be coupled with making sure your entire tank, and gas line is clean and fresh gas is added.

I tried to add a in-line Tempo filter, but it messed up the pressure in the fuel line and wouldn't run. Scrapping that and making sure the engine sits no more than one month.

The dirt that is clogging these carbs is as small as a grain of sand! and I am convinced it is entering the system from the vent or fill nozzle.

Good luck.

 

[zzzzz]

Re: Four stroke carb flaw?

GaryN- sometimes we use THAT method combined with squirts(into carb throat)of a potent carb cleaner- BRP's Engine Tuner-until the engine almost dies 4 to 5 times then give enough of a squirt to kill the engine and let it sit in the carb overnight...next day with a fresh set of plugs fire it up-it will be hard starting because of all the Engine Tuner in it but it'll start...maybe smoke a little but it saves doing a carb job

 

[tunaguymarlinfisher]

Re: Four stroke carb flaw?

Gentlemen, I have been A certified Yamaha tech. for over ten years at a very busy dealership and have seen these fuel issues quite often.There may be a few discrepancies to what you are talking about. First ethanol fuel is terrible (alcohol and water mix really well), when water gets into the fuel it causes phase seperation. The ethanol combined with gasoline is an excellant cleaner. It has cleaned from the refinery to your plastic tank and will leave the particulates in your carb bowl and into your jets after it settles for a while. Yamaha does want the fuel drained from VST and carbs for extended storage, as well as using stablizer and ring free, I was in Georgia last month and asked that very question about storage and fuel (again, seems to change yearly).
Now, the carb will need to be cleaned but it is not hard to do a thorough cleaning without the ultrasonic cleaner. The idle air mixture screw does need to be removed, that is only a cap which can be removed, ---DON"T TELL MY BOSS I TOLD YOU,---- but all you have to do, is with a small drill, drill through the cap (barely) then screw a small self-tapping screw in and pull out. Proceed the way you would normally clean any carb by opening what you can and thoroughly spraying every orifice combined with compressed air. Before dissassembly turn your idle screw in and count how many turns. When reassembling, back the screw out an extra 1\4- 1\2 turn if there is an idle problem.
The "trick" mentioned rarely, if ever, works. The carb will have to be removed from the engine. I have done 50-100 of this style carb ranging from 86 through 2007 and I have never had to order any parts besides an occasional gasket. Be sure to flush all fuel lines. Use the highest octane available, even though Yamaha recommends 86 octane, by the time you use it high test will be 86-(after a month or more). ALWAYS STABALIZE YOU FUEL!!!.
If you feel you are being taken advantage by your dealer contact Yamaha directly they have made their outboard business by return customers and a great product. They will listen to you with or without a "movement". They have a good record for helping out when out of warranty (bad fuel issues not covered). They also have made great strides in providing relief by injecting most of the 07 models and providing 10 micron fuel filters at a resonable cost.

 

[Rancherlee]

Re: Four stroke carb flaw?

Don't just blame it on Ethonal. In Minnesota we have had this so called new "E10" for over 20 years with no issues. If its new to your state then like someone else stated, its probibly "cleaning" its way for the refinery to your gas tank and getting "crap" in the gas. In a year or two it should be alot better. As far as running it empty goes it fine to do if its a Single carb 4 stroke engine. With multiple carb you run into the possibilty of one carb running dry and stalling the engine while there is still a small amount of fuel left in the other carb and with a 2 stroke you car score a cylinder due to lack of lubrication.

 

[mitir73]

Re: Four stroke carb flaw?

what about using avgass 100 octane low lead no ethynol. In my state its 2.00 more a gallon i have already spent another 20 dollars on fuel filters and separators since i put my boat in the water in late April. I would be breaking even on costs and not have to clean out my carb again. or rebuild it for the second time in less than two years at 25 dollars a pop for the kit.
mitir

 

[mitir73]

Re: Four stroke carb flaw?

hi tunaguymarlinfisher

thats some interesting information and thanks for your honesty. where on the carb would i be looking for a cap to drill?. is it near the idle screw. I rebuilt my carb on my engine 2000 25horse 4 stroke and i believe i saw more than one cap i believe they were copper or gold colored. I would guess that it could ruin my day and carb if i drilled a hole in the wrong place.
could i go online and get a picture of where the cap is located ?


mitir

 

[mitir73]

Re: Four stroke carb flaw?

what about using avgass 100 octane low lead no ethynol. In my state its 2.00 more a gallon i have already spent another 20 dollars on fuel filters and separators since i put my boat in the water in late April. I would be breaking even on costs and not have to clean out my carb again. or rebuild it for the second time in less than two years at 25 dollars a pop for the kit.
mitir

 

[tunaguymarlinfisher]

Re: Four stroke carb flaw?

There should only be one cap and it is copper/ gold color. It is on the side of the carb and it is only there if you can't see the idle adjustment screw (screw with spring ) 2000 may or may not be an EPA carb.

hi tunaguymarlinfisher

thats some interesting information and thanks for your honesty. where on the carb would i be looking for a cap to drill?. is it near the idle screw. I rebuilt my carb on my engine 2000 25horse 4 stroke and i believe i saw more than one cap i believe they were copper or gold colored. I would guess that it could ruin my day and carb if i drilled a hole in the wrong place.
could i go online and get a picture of where the cap is located ?


mitir

 

[tunaguymarlinfisher]

Re: Four stroke carb flaw?

I am not sure about that fuel, I have never heard about AVGASS 100 before. I do know our major problem wih 10% ethenol is it is never really 10% sometimes up to 30-35% ethanol. Connecticut changed over 4 years ago and have ran through many different consultants, the only thing they recommend is to not let your fuel sit around longer than a month, after that it goes down hill quickly. Because it is a cleaner too, the more you run your engine the better it is (as long as fuel is fresh).

what about using avgass 100 octane low lead no ethynol. In my state its 2.00 more a gallon i have already spent another 20 dollars on fuel filters and separators since i put my boat in the water in late April. I would be breaking even on costs and not have to clean out my carb again. or rebuild it for the second time in less than two years at 25 dollars a pop for the kit.
mitir

 

[mitir73]

Re: Four stroke carb flaw?

thanks again for your info tuna guy
avgas is aviation gasoline gas you put in a small airplane and would buy it at a general aviation airport. would the higher octane gasoline 100 octane low lead adversely affect my engine.

Went out to my engine and looked at the carb there are 5 gold caps or copper not just one they are located all over the carb where can i get information about this carb. I guess i will try to call customer relations down in georgia again
but from experience i dont expect much help the mans name was Allen and when i asked to speak to his boss he said he was the head man in customer relations. Not a credit to Yamaha.

how do i find out if i have a epa valve or not is there anywhere i can get the information from Yamaha. I bought a shop manual lit 18616 01 77 when i bought the motor so i would not have problems like this but the manual is not as detailed as i expected. thanks again mitir