Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

[RickyGee]

I retired to live on my houseboat and have been asked to help fellow boat owners winterize their boats each year. Like large cruisers, houseboats remain moored year round and typically have Bravo drives or VP sterndrives installed so that the sea water pump impeller can be serviced without pulling the boat.


But access to winterization plugs can be difficult to nearly impossible, and removing the sea water intake hose just to introduce antifreeze can also be difficult and very uncomfortable.


So I came up with a mod that I have done to several boats and thought I would share it with the forum, as a gift back for all the help and advice I have received here. The mod installs a Webstone ProPal brass double ball valve in the intake hose which allows simple and quick winterization without having to drain or disassemble anything. The valve and hose barb fittings can be purchased from several sources for less than $50. This picture is from a mod to a 4.3L and the 5.0L and 5.7L are even easier since there is a bit more room.


I also wrote a procedure to follow once the valve is installed and I will attach it once I figure out how to attach something other than a picture.
View attachment Winterization Procedure with Webstone ProPal Ball Drain Valve installed.pdf

Hope some of you find this useful. And thanks again. -Rick

 

[alldodge]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

Very nicely done Rick, kudos.

I like the valve, seen others which use a Tee and 2 ball valves, which means more clamps. It like this double valve

 

[Bt Doctur]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

I think you need to re-write a few steps. You need to drain everything first. block,manifolds,risers. Then use your method to introduce the A/F into the motor.
There is no gaurantee that your getting freeze protection with the 2 to 2 1/2 gallons of water in the block.There is no gaurantee the thermostat will remain open.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

I think you need to re-write a few steps. You need to drain everything first. block,manifolds,risers. Then use your method to introduce the A/F into the motor.
There is no gaurantee that your getting freeze protection with the 2 to 2 1/2 gallons of water in the block.There is no gaurantee the thermostat will remain open.

Ayuh,.... Ditto,... Just because the drains are "Hard" to get to, don't mean that step can be skipped,.....

That's a 50/ 50 shot at winterization,....

 

[agallant80]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

I have seen these and have also heard complaints that they are plastic.
Perko Flush Pro Valve - 1

You can add the fresh water flush pretty easy to your setup. Do you have a list of part numbers you use?

 

[RickyGee]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

I think you need to re-write a few steps. You need to drain everything first. block,manifolds,risers. Then use your method to introduce the A/F into the motor.
There is no gaurantee that your getting freeze protection with the 2 to 2 1/2 gallons of water in the block.There is no gaurantee the thermostat will remain open.

Not necessary. That's the whole point of the mod. 2 to 2 1/2 gallons is the capacity of an automotive system that includes a radiator. A marine V6 or V8 with sea water cooling only, has a block and hose capacity of about 1 gallon total. If you're uncomfortable with 3 gallons, increase the amount to 4 or 5. Of course the thermostat will remain open, if it's operating properly. If there is any doubt that the thermostat may be malfunctioning, then this procedure can NOT be used. I use an IR thermometer to check the engine and ensure that everything is normal before proceeding.

 

[RickyGee]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

Ayuh,.... Ditto,... Just because the drains are "Hard" to get to, don't mean that step can be skipped,.....

That's a 50/ 50 shot at winterization,....

I respectfully disagree. For the sake of illustration, suppose the intake hose were put in a 55 gal drum of antifreeze? Would the antifreeze circulate to all parts of the engine? How about a 1000 gal drum? Since the engine block and hoses contain only about 1 gal of cooling water, 3 gallons, properly introduced as the instructions state, will do the trick. We had temps below zero this winter, and no issues with any of the boats winterized using this process.

Obviously, the person using this process MUST ensure that the thermostat is fully open. And if he/she is unsure of how to do that, then I don't recommend this mod for them. I use an IR thermometer to check temps before proceeding.

 

[RickyGee]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

I have seen these and have also heard complaints that they are plastic.
Perko Flush Pro Valve - 1

You can add the fresh water flush pretty easy to your setup. Do you have a list of part numbers you use?

Webstone #40615 which is 1-1/4” ID valve with female threaded ends. You will also need 2ea 1-1/4" hose barb to MPT adaptor fittings. I use MER IBMA125 adaptors. The valve is about $30 and the adaptors are about $11 ea. And you will need 4ea 2" SS hose clamps, a piece of garden hose and a 90 female hose end fitting.

 

[JustJason]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

Not necessary. That's the whole point of the mod. 2 to 2 1/2 gallons is the capacity of an automotive system that includes a radiator. A marine V6 or V8 with sea water cooling only, has a block and hose capacity of about 1 gallon total. If you're uncomfortable with 3 gallons, increase the amount to 4 or 5. Of course the thermostat will remain open, if it's operating properly. If there is any doubt that the thermostat may be malfunctioning, then this procedure can NOT be used. I use an IR thermometer to check the engine and ensure that everything is normal before proceeding.

As somebody who has literally winterized 1000's of engines. A standard 5.7, after everything has been completely drained, between the block and manifolds, will take 5 gallons of antifreeze when filling everything manually. (and some a little more). And big blocks obviously take more (7 to 8 on average)

While I appreciate your ingenuity, your ball have here is no different than the west marine kit here;
http://www.***************/antifreeze/west-marine--engine-winterizing-kit--520411

The only difference between the 2 is where you are introducing the antifreeze. While the ball valve looks nice, it's no different than throwing a set of muffs on the sterndrive.

Now if you wanted to drain the engine completely, and then use that to introduce antifreeze into the engine, you will get some antifreeze into the engine. It will not completely fill up as the thermostat needs to open first, but you will get some antifreeze in it. The rest will go out the manifolds while waiting for the thermostat to open up. But doing it that way is a waste of antifreeze, it's easier just to pull the water circulating pumps hose and fill the block up that way. And pull the hoses off the manifolds to fill those up manually as well.

Again as somebody that has winterized literally 1000's of engines. (and never had a cracked block btw). If you drain the engine first and then use your method for introducing antifreeze into the engine you stand 100% chance of never having a cracked block, but the engines are not really going to be totally full of antifreeze. But if you do not drain first, you stand a 50/50 chance of having a cracked block come spring. You might have dodged the bullet a few times in your winterizing locally, but sooner or later somebody is going to come looking at you for 5 to 6k to cover their cracked block.

On a side note, if you got that ball valve from the plumbing store check it for a screen. Some of those ball valves have screens in them. (and will obviously clog up)

 

[RickyGee]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

As somebody who has literally winterized 1000's of engines. A standard 5.7, after everything has been completely drained, between the block and manifolds, will take 5 gallons of antifreeze when filling everything manually. (and some a little more). And big blocks obviously take more (7 to 8 on average)

While I appreciate your ingenuity, your ball have here is no different than the west marine kit here;
http://www.***************/antifreeze/west-marine--engine-winterizing-kit--520411

The only difference between the 2 is where you are introducing the antifreeze. While the ball valve looks nice, it's no different than throwing a set of muffs on the sterndrive.

Now if you wanted to drain the engine completely, and then use that to introduce antifreeze into the engine, you will get some antifreeze into the engine. It will not completely fill up as the thermostat needs to open first, but you will get some antifreeze in it. The rest will go out the manifolds while waiting for the thermostat to open up. But doing it that way is a waste of antifreeze, it's easier just to pull the water circulating pumps hose and fill the block up that way. And pull the hoses off the manifolds to fill those up manually as well.

Again as somebody that has winterized literally 1000's of engines. (and never had a cracked block btw). If you drain the engine first and then use your method for introducing antifreeze into the engine you stand 100% chance of never having a cracked block, but the engines are not really going to be totally full of antifreeze. But if you do not drain first, you stand a 50/50 chance of having a cracked block come spring. You might have dodged the bullet a few times in your winterizing locally, but sooner or later somebody is going to come looking at you for 5 to 6k to cover their cracked block.

On a side note, if you got that ball valve from the plumbing store check it for a screen. Some of those ball valves have screens in them. (and will obviously clog up)

This westone valve is solid brass, not plastic and it does not have any screen. I did this mod for boats that are moored year round. You're right that the concept is the same as introducing antifreeze with muffs on the drive; if done properly, you have antifreeze circulated through all parts of the cooling system. And if done wrong, will result in a $6k bill...

 

[Maclin]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

Ricky, will you be liable for those $6k bills if it fails?

 

[Bondo]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

Didn't mean you (well maybe the shifter LOL) but this is the time of year that the folks that replaced their impellers, run into shift problems (put together with gearcase in reverse, rather than forward, easy mistake to make) and the guys that watched the you tube videos and winterized with antifreeze WITHOUT DRAINING THE BLOCKS FIRST are seeing that sometimes it does not work:facepalm:. Will be seeing lots of those posts for the several weeks.

Ayuh,.... A quote from another thread by my friend Terry,...

Winter storage, with antifreeze, MUST start with drainin' the block,..... Period,...

Without Drainin', 1st, it's just a 50/ 50 crap shoot,...

 

[Bt Doctur]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

The pour in method uses 4 gallons not including hoses.This "muff method" has been reportedly used over and over . The lucky ones somehow get thru the winter with no damage.(Even a blind squirrel will find a nut now and then) and then there are those who say" But I follwed so and so`s directions and now my block is cracked. I saw the pink stuff come out the exaust.?
Like the Late, Great, Don`s favorite saying
Why is there always time to do it over, but never the time to do it right the first time.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

Pretty cool!

You might also have everyone using this method to put an "alligator-clip" on their keys.

Clip the keys to the valve handle so when de-winterizing, they HAVE to look at the valve handle before operating the engine!!

 

[alldodge]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

I do like the double valve. When we winterize here, we use the valves to close off supply and then blow air through everything with the drains out.

 

[thumpar]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

We have already seen cracked block posts this year from people not draining the block before using antifreeze.

 

[RickyGee]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

All very good points. From 40,000 ft, the point of winterizing is to remove the water which can freeze, expand, and ruin your whole day, and replace it with something that wont; like air, or antifreeze, or both. I ALWAYS drained my SeaRay, because I could, and I could leave the plugs out, the hoses off and the hull drain out so that the residual water could evaporate. And it was hard to do.

For boats that stay moored with an engine mounted sea water pump, the pump intake is below the waterline (at least the ones I work on are). It's functionally impossible to get the water out of the sea water pump, and keep it out by a simple draining process. There are other cavities on the engine that will trap water, if only drained, such as the PSP heat exchanger, the lower end of the recirculation pump, etc. I work on older engines (late 80's to mid 2000's) that don't have the latest drain methods employed.

Engine installations can certainly differ, and the capacities can vary accordingly. By using this procedure, the exhaust manifolds get antifreeze beginning almost immediatly, so that's not an issue. The question is whether the recirculation pump has run long enough to displace all the seawater and replaced it with the antifreeze solution. By using a 1/2" or 5/8" garden hose to introduce the antifreeze, the rate is slowed. Running the engine at idle does not produce enough heat to be damaged by the reduced flow, and gives the process enough time for the recirculated fluid to be exchanged.

To be absolutly sure, you can complete the process. then open a block drain and capture a bit of fluid and test it with an antifreeze tester which you can get at almost any autoparts store. That's how I settled on 3 gallons. The -50 solution was diluted slightly and was still good for -30 in the test sample taken from the block. That's good enough for the temps we get here.

Mercruiser offers a similar device, made of plastic, and absurdly expensive. If the concept works for Brunswick...

 

[RickyGee]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

Ricky, will you be liable for those $6k bills if it fails?

I would be morally and ethically obligated to make things right. I'm very comfortable accepting that responsibility, because I take the time to do it right. I know it won't fail, if I follow the process I laid out. So far at this marina, I know of 2 boats damaged by the record cold this past winter; one has a cracked block and manifolds (4.3L runabout) and I don't know who winterized it, the other has a cracked PSP heat exchanger, after a local company did the typical drain style winterization. I'm sure there will be more.

If you can pull your boat out of the water, then you don't need this mod. Either drain the block, pumps, manifolds, heat exchangers, and hoses, or winterize using muffs, or both.

 

[RickyGee]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

OK - Legal Disclaimer Time - If you choose to do this mod, you accept responsibility and liability for the results. I accept responsibility only for those engines that I have personally modified and for the winterization effectiveness of the process for only those engines that I personally winterize. There. Do it right, you'll be okay. Do it wrong, and... If in doubt, test your results. Then sleep comfortably.

 

[RickyGee]

Re: Forum gift ? winterization valve for Bravo drives

Pretty cool!

You might also have everyone using this method to put an "alligator-clip" on their keys.

Clip the keys to the valve handle so when de-winterizing, they HAVE to look at the valve handle before operating the engine!!

That's a good idea, but you made me realize that I snapped that picture with the valve closed. That was taken right after the first mod. Since then, I realized that by blowing out the water in the intake hose at the end of the procedure, you could establish an air lock that would prevent sea water from re-filling the hose to the pump, and leaving the valve closed was unnecessary. It then made sense, for safety and Murphy-proofing, to return the valve to the open position when finished so that the engine was immediately ready for normal service, or emergency operation in the off season. No "de-winterizing" required. The procedure reflects this change.