Force 125 throttle throw help

[chrismarion]

As the title states, I am having some issues with my throttle throw and cannot figure out what the problem is. Quick back story, I took this outboard off my old boat in 2010 and it sat on a stand out of the weather until three months ago. Outboard is tip top. I ordered new Teleflex cables, because this would be going on my 24 foot tritoon conversion. Console is also smaller, so I can't use the Morse MT3 single control. I have two spare control boxes, because we had two pontoon boats for this build. Each had a mercury, but one had a more modern Quicksilver Commander 2000 side mount and the other was the 80's Quicksilver Commander with the big plastic cover. That is the one I currently have installed on the pontoon fence.

I did review multiple times the sticky for setting up the carbs. However, I cannot get wide open throttle. Max rotation of the throttle cam puts the throttle plates to 80% when the timing tower stop hits the block. I notice one thing specifically. When returning the lever back to neutral the timing tower stop screw does not contact the block. I have never adjusted this previously and never had an issue with idle/running conditions. I can take a screw driver and push the timing tower arm and it rotates until it hits the stop, about 3/8 inch. Obviously the throttle cable collapses a little as well. This leads me to believe my throw issue is either the cable or the control box. Since it won't go return to zero on its own, idle is very high. Adjust everything to a zero starting point based on where the timing tower stops with the current cable/control box setup and I get 80% max throttle. I also have no binds in the cables.

I'm not seeing any play in the control box and these are brand new cables. If you think the control box is the issue, I can swap them out. The other box does not mount to the fence, I will have to drill holes in the console to mount it as the lever is on the starboard side. Thoughts? Is there something else I am not thinking of?

 

[chrismarion]

Okay, I had a thought immediately after posting above. I dragged my wife outside in this disgusting heatwave. I put the controls in full forward and brought back to neutral. Repeated twice. I had her push the return stop arm so I could watch inside the control box. The internal throttle cam lever rotated 1/4 inch until it hit the stop inside. I think its safe to say the control box must be the problem. As a 1/4" is a big throw and should put me almost 100% WOT. I am not familiar with this box, and I cannot see how I could make adjustments. Any ideas, or should I try to rig up the other control box. Again, both are used.

 

[The Force power]

I don't know how to answer your questions, hopefully someone with more knowledge will tune in.
In the mean time, maybe this helps;

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1T...BhYy00MjlmLTg5NzktMjQyZDJhMGQ3YzQ1/edit?pli=1

 

[jerryjerry05]

The shifter in the pic is for a Force with Mercury linkage.
The 125 needs an older style shifter.

 

[Redbarron%%]

I had a heck of a time with my sport jet throttle having enough throw to go from idle to WOT as well and in my searching through the pile of parts for the several engine remains I have I discovered at least two different "throw" cams. The distance from the pivot to the ball is the difference. The two I had have a 1 and a 2 stamped on them, The one with the closest to the pivot was the 1. After fighting the battle of the timing and bias circuits I was faced with still missing a small amount to get the WOT correct.
So since the factory found it necessary to have different rations to get WOT I figured what the heck I just drilled a hole in the #2 cam where I thought the #0 ought to be to get WOT with the binnicle that was mounted on my Hobie Jet Skiff.
First verify that you have the timing and link and sync correct and the BIAS is correct as this changes the way the advance functions with the increasing RPM.
Once you are sure that you have the basic setup correct and the throttle on the boat side are as correct as you can make it you can drill a hole directly below the existing one and get that little extra throw you need to have idle correct as well as WOT.
Please note that if the bias in not correct the idle adjustment will end up being screwed up running as well. Not only that the timing will not be as stable either. Once I got the bias circuit on my conversion to the CDM modules I was able to set the idle in accordance with the spacing shown in the manual (1/8" screw head to nut) and get WOT timing etc, but lacked just "That much" getting WOT as the throttle comes in mostly at the end of travel.
Maybe you need a #1 or a #0 cam (if it exists).
Personally I think drilling the hole or even slotting the hole is a minor modification as the factory has several versions already.

 

[chrismarion]

Redbarron = Can you provide a picture of said drilled hole?

JerryJerry = I know I have to do something because this is on my last nerve in regards to a control box that works. Wish I could just fit my Morse on here, but I can't. The pictured control box works with the Force throttle cable linkage (the large spring loaded piece).

This one below will not work with that throttle cable piece. With the throttle cable attached and control box in neutral, the cable end is much closer to the ball mount on the Force, thus needing a much shorter linkage threaded on. Almost the same size as the shifter link.

What suggestions do you have in regards to this and model control box I should look for?

 

[Redbarron%%]

A couple of things.
1 Are there different holes for the throttle in the control? One further out from the pivot would move the cable farther.
2 I am not home right now so I can't go out an take a picture. I would just drill a hole below the one currently used and try that. First, however, I would make sure that the 9 and 30 degree timing is right. Adjust the timing with the timing tower shaft at the stop. Then check the 9 degree at idle and set the rod for the cam with a little clearance from the roller.
After doing that see if you have enough throw for the carbs from idle (plates closed) to WOT.
I had a problem with getting the idle screw and max timing correct at the same time and the idle timing was a good bit lower than 9 degrees and the idle screw was way out even then.
My problem (I believe) was a flywheel / trigger bias problem.
I have been experimenting with with conversion of the CDI box to three CDM modules and my main problem was trigger bias control. The old box / flywheel was not working right and the CDMs without the bias were the same.
I shamelessly tore into a late model trigger coil and copied the bias circuit and I believe it has solved my troubles.
I will be back home next week and I will post some pictures then.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Ebay
Force Chrysler controls.
Just about any will work.

 

[chrismarion]

Okay, I know I am again bringing this back up. The alternatives on eBay are $225+ US Marine side mount controls that are 30+ years old. It's one thing to pay for a brand new unit at $225, but I can't pay $225 for a used item that could break tomorrow and clearly there are no parts for.

With that said, there has to be a remedy or a work around with newer side mount boxes. Am I the only one thinking this way? I am contemplating on swapping out the longer spring loaded throttle cable linkage, with the short stubby solid one like the on the shift cable. It appears the shorter linkage will work with the newer style Quicksilver side mount.

 

[Nordin]

Chrismarion if you change the spring loaded linkage for the throttle to the no spring loaded one you must be sure the shift linkage has done almost the whole stroke before the throttle move to a to high RPM, if not the gear will grind.
The purpose of the spring loaded linkage is that the shift linkage has made all it`s stroke before the throttle starts to move.
This will make sure the RPM do not increase before the shifter has make all it`stroke and the gears are engage fully.

 

[Redbarron%%]

You may have a problem with the bias circuit as if it is not working correctly the timing will move more with less throttle movement.
There is a spec for the usual position of the idle screw and then the WOT stop on the tower.
I would
1. take the tower to cam rod loose at one end. and take the cable loose from the tower.
2.set the tower at the WOT stop.
3. Set the WOT cranking at the 32 degree spec.
4. See where the resultant idle timing was. If the idle screw is not at the correct position with the 9 degrees this is a problem.
5. If the idle screw is correct at idle 9 degrees, connect the rod to the cam and set the clearance to the roller as specified.
6. Check for carbs from plated closed to WOT.
7. if you don't get WOT then look into changing the ball position as stated above.

If you cannot get the 30* at WOT and 9* and the idle screw setting on the stop with the head 1/8 - 1/4" lock nut to head of screw then I would investigate the bias circuit as the advance due to increasing RPM changes everything. The negative bias generated by the trigger acting as a generator offsets the improper advance increase from increasing RPM. It can also lead to poor running and preignition and burned piston. Ask how I know...
After you know the basic timing is correct and the advance and the carbs are tracking let's talk about the remote.

 

[chrismarion]

Redbarron,

You keep posting the same thing and it has nothing to do with throw/movement. You are not understanding what I am saying. Please understand I am not being a complete @$$hole when I say, listen to what I am saying and stop repeating ignition timing. When I disconnect the throttle cable from the screw clamp on the engine tower rod and move the side mount control from neutral to wide open throttle. It literally only pushes the cable 80% of the needed 100% to get wide open throttle. I can move the tower cam rod back and forth without issue from zero to 100%. Understand my percentage refers to the throttle plates inside the carbs.

The side mount control box is my issue. I can choose to start my idle at 20% throttle in order to reach 100% wide open throttle by adjusting the essentric screw, or start my idle off at normal and reach 80% total throttle body opening when the side mount box is wide open. The current box does not move provide enough cable movement via it's internal rotation. So you grasp this, I can hook my cables up to my Morse top mount control and voila, no issues. However, I cannot use this control assembly on my pontoon boat.

 

[Redbarron%%]

OK Never mind I have been trying to tell you that the throw on the engine must be correct for everything to work.
I won't bother you again
Have a nice day.