Explain the Poppit valve?

andy6374

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Alright I understand that the poppit remains closed below 3000RPM and opens thereafter to maintain "constant flow". <br /><br />Upon disassembling the entire relief valve system I am confused. So water comes from behind the flywheel down to the relief valve system. Now if the water pressure is great enough it can force the poppit to overcome the compression of the spring and thus push the diaphragm open. What does this do for you? The doesn't seem to be an exit points inside relief valve plate and cover, how does the extra water exit?<br /><br />Plus how does the whole cooling system work? water come up the water tube...where does it intially go to.And how does it circulate.
 

KCLOST

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Re: Explain the Poppit valve?

There was a great diagram of the water flow posted a while back that shows the flow through the various water jackets, heads, relief valve system, t-stats, and into the exhaust to exit. <br /><br />Maybe someone can find it and post it again...<br /><br />But basically the poppet valve works like this... At lower rpms, the main temperature control is the t-stats. At this point the water pressure is low and there is very little flow of water into the cylinder head water jackets... But once the temp. of the water that is at the top of the block near the t-stats reaches the 145F mark, the t-stats begin to open up and water flows through the head water jackets. You can see this happening with a water pressure guage, as my motor will run about 10psi at idle when cold, when it heats up and the t-stats open my water pressure will drop to about 5psi.<br /> This will continue up to around 2500-3000 rpms.. And I beilieve at this rpm you will see an increase in pressure to about 15-20 psi (I can't remember the exact measurement however). And the t-stats will still be open. At this point there is a constriction of water flow through the heads/t-stats/water jackets. More water is being supplied than can be exited, so what happens, the water absorbs heat, more heat, and can lead to an overheat condition. So at the right pressure level the poppet valve is pushed open and the water is able to escape, thus improving water flow through the entire system and allowing that extra flow necessary to cool the engine properly at higher rpms. As the poppet opens a little, the water doesn't actually go past the diaphram it just opens up a port that the water can go to and then into the exhaust. You have to remove the poppet to see it. It is right on the outward side of the grommet and carrier that the poppet slides into.<br /><br />If it is faulty, won't open, it can result in an overheat condition at higher rpms, the water is there but not enough flow to remove the heat absorbed by the water. If it will not close, it can result in an overheat condition at lower rpms as the water is dumped from the block and you lose the water needed to fully circulate the cooling system.<br /><br />You can also see when the poppet opens and closes with a water pressure guage. On my engine it seems to open and close around 2500-3000 rpms. This is what seems weird to me, When it opens the water pressure drops below the point/level that was needed to open it. The same goes when it closes, except in reverse.<br />Must be due to the weird design of the assembly...
 

dingbat

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Re: Explain the Poppit valve?

When it opens the water pressure drops below the point/level that was needed to open it. The same goes when it closes, except in reverse.<br />
As with any spring apparatus, you have to overcome the initial force of the spring so you will see a higher pressure followed by a low pressure followed by an ”average” pressure once the tension in the spring stabilizes. When closing the revise is opposite, the low pressure would has to drop out to set the spring back into motion.
 

coves

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Re: Explain the Poppit valve?

go to search mode above. enter "water flow diagram" and you should get about 8 hits. You will find a couple of diagrams and links to another drawing regarding this. The designers of these systems must be in straight jackets somewhere by now!
 

KCLOST

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Re: Explain the Poppit valve?

Here it is.... For 1989 and newer... There are a few differences in older motors especially the poppet assembly..<br />\<br />
watermark.php
 

KCLOST

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Re: Explain the Poppit valve?

On the diagram above the poppet cover has a fitting that recieves a hose that comes from another fitting at the top of the block... I believe that this was added to allow the escape of air that could build up at the top of the block. In this case, the water flows from the block to the poppet via the hose to correct that problem..
 

andy6374

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Re: Explain the Poppit valve?

IS this the design III system
 

MrBigStuff

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Re: Explain the Poppit valve?

That pic shows something that has bugged me for some time now. Prior to the t-stats opening, the only flow available to the tell-tale is the vent groove around the t-stats. If that's the case, how can there be a strong tell-tale stream at cold idle?
 

andy6374

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Re: Explain the Poppit valve?

There shouldn't be a strong tell-tale stream at a cold idle, unless your t-stats are removed.
 

MrBigStuff

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Re: Explain the Poppit valve?

Originally posted by KCLOST:<br /> What year and motor do you have?
Unfortunately, due to the flat nature of the posts, I can't tell who you are directing this question towards...<br /><br />I have a '91 V6 135hp Black Max. The Seloc manual stinks IMHO. I hate manuals that are "generic" and cover multitudes of engines. The pics shown are similar to the one psoted above. My motor runs flawlessly (knocking on wood) and therefore have not disassembled much to confirm but I get very little tell-tale until the t-stats open. Often times, I hear/read people who say it should be strong at idle but since mine runs good and is operating within temp specs, I believe the diagram is accurate for my engine.
 

KCLOST

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Re: Explain the Poppit valve?

For your motor year, your symptoms are correct!
 

MrBigStuff

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Re: Explain the Poppit valve?

Originally posted by KCLOST:<br /> For your motor year, your symptoms are correct!
Well, it sure is a relief to have someone confirm my suspicions! Thanks for taking the time, I really appreciate it!!
 

andy6374

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Re: Explain the Poppit valve?

Another question:<br /><br />So it is the water within the block that forces the poppit foward (out of the block) out of its resting spot inside the grommet/carrier. When it pushes it foward that water within the block can drain out the ports foward the grommet and carrier. Ok OK....<br /><br />What is the purpose of the hose that comes done from behind the flywheel to the left side of the pressure relief cover. That water flows into a "dead end" cavity. What does this do for you?
 

KCLOST

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Re: Explain the Poppit valve?

It's actually for air escape that may build up at the top of the block...<br /><br />The air is pressurized within the tube to allow the top of the block to be air pocket free...
 

gss036

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Re: Explain the Poppit valve?

That really throws a curve into my thinking. Then why does the water pressure guage hooked into the hose out of the top of the block that goes to the poppet valve? I looked at the water flow chart and I am still wondering if the water coming out of the top of the block discharges water through the poppit valve or as you say, just allows air to escape. It is hard to tell w/the flow chart.<br />If you look at the instructions form Telflex, that is how they tell you to hook up the guage.
 

KCLOST

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Re: Explain the Poppit valve?

gss, tapping into that hose is going to give you the correct water pressure as it is basically a direct tap into the cooling system. Think of the pressure guage line and how it works. As the pressure increases, the air in the line is compressed and as it is compressed water actually goes up into that line a certain distance. The same thing happens with the hose that goes to the poppet. <br /><br />I'll be honest however, I have never really messed with that style of poppet much. But that was my understanding... And you are correct, it is hard to tell if there is a discharge. There may be but it can't be much. It was a design to allow the excape of air and the escape of a vapor lock if air forms from overheated conditions...
 

gss036

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Re: Explain the Poppit valve?

I was talking with a mechanic friend who has his own shop for the last 20+ years and he told me that if you run w/o the cowling and felt of the heads that they would be cold? I have never tried it, but by the way he explains it, there is a lot of cold water going through the engine. <br />I was of the assumption there was water also flowing into the poppit from the top of the engine, but if one looks at the flow chart carefully, it doesn't really show an opening. If you look at the gaskets and the cover, relief vale plate and the 2 gaskets, it shows a passage into the same chamber as the poppit. One would have to assume that there is water flow there.<br />I may just have to pull mine to take a look when I get bored, it has never been changed, the engine is 16 yrs old, maybe it is time.
 

KCLOST

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Re: Explain the Poppit valve?

"I was talking with a mechanic friend who has his own shop for the last 20+ years and he told me that if you run w/o the cowling and felt of the heads that they would be cold? I have never tried it, but by the way he explains it, there is a lot of cold water going through the engine."<br /><br />gss, He is incorrect!!! On the black max motors we are dealing with 145F thermostats. The water temperature will have to reach and exceed that level after a while of running even at idle, before the water is allowed to fully flow through the head jackets. And the heads will be at least that temperature and even higher. The cylinder head water jackets are set just on top of the combustion chamber and you know how hot that area gets.<br />Our motors have what they call a "high Pressure" water pump. Newer motors have a "high Volume" principle. The newer design allows motors to run much cooler. Ours Don't, as well as the design of the cooling system and motor itself!
 
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