EPA Approves 15% Ethanol Gas

[1stgenbird]

Not good news for us older outboard owners.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-10-13/epa-allows-15-ethanol-in-gasoline-for-newer-cars.html

The article says approved for 2007 and newer cars but it won't be long until that's all you can buy.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: EPA Approves 15% Ethanol Gas

Don't panic folks. READ the article!!!! It is not "mandatory" that E15 be used in your car or any other engine. Retailers are going to be reluctant to sell it since it requires yet another separate pump. So you would have choices of: 1) diesel, 2) E10, 3) regular. 4) mid-grade, 5) premium 6) E15, and at some stations 7) E-85. Can you say confusion. As for engine damage, I doubt the engine itself gives a hoot what is burning in its cylinders. The systems that feed that fuel to the engine and the various sensors that come into contact with it may however be affected which is what the testing is about. I run E85 in my Impala that has over 50,000 miles on it and it performs as it did when new. The state of Minnesota requires state vehicles to use E85 when available and if the vehicle can use it. Otherwise our regular grade is E10. As for marine and off-road use, E15 does not apply as the article states.

 

[1stgenbird]

Re: EPA Approves 15% Ethanol Gas

Not yet. Just wait a few years then 15% will be the norm.

 

[metriccrescentwrench]

Re: EPA Approves 15% Ethanol Gas

Thank this guy:

"Nebraska Republican Senator Mike Johanns criticized the EPA for ?foot-dragging? on approving E15 fuel for vehicles manufactured in 2001 and later. EPA approval of E15 for those vehicles is expected in December, after further testing is completed."

He's supporting a group of large chemical manufacturers that want to push more ethanol use.

This really doesn't affect us boaters, the EPA has said that using E15 in cars built after 2007 won't harm them, and it's still evaluating data on 2001 and newer cars. In the long term we're better off if we can find a suitable alternative to imported oil, but in the great scheme of things this news story is a non-issue.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: EPA Approves 15% Ethanol Gas

Although the corn belt farmers and politicians certainly push "corn squeezins", it is Archer Daniels Midland that holds the cards in this debate so lets put the blame (or progress) on them as that's where the money is. If there was no progress or at least an attempt at creating a viable alternate fuel mankind would be walking again at some point. Progress generally means certain things we have must be modified or abandoned as support for those things falls by the wayside. I'm certain everyone would like to go back to the good old black rotary phone, or the 78 rpm record player, or the 8-track tape, or the Stanley Steamer. Fact is, one needs to do whatever is necessary to adapt to the situations that arise in life. Failure to do so means you suffer the consequences. Wringing ones hands is not a solution. Taking action is.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: EPA Approves 15% Ethanol Gas

god I love the govt marine technician stimulous package.
its better than a bank bailout.
its funny how some love the E fuel boondoggle but those of us that actually have tanks larger than 6 gallons and late model EFI or DFI motors already know what E fuels do to a real boat.
that 66 jonnyrude 33 runs so rich and inefficient it could urn E-50.
my EFI and DFI engines simply cant adapt and burn lean.
so far there isnt any marine engine manufactured OR imported that can run on E-15 without simply voiding the warrenty.
I have a regulator at the shop with twin F350 motors that holds 325 gallons.
we have several gallons of water in the tank, port engine plugs have rust on all 8.
its from the E fuel sucking water from the air then moing this water to the engine.
you CANNOT filter the suspended water with conventional fuel water seperators.
this water is held in solution until the solution becomes super saturated, then the water and alcohol fall out of solution and the motor goes POOF.
AND a poofed moter is NOT covered under ANY warrenty if its a watery fuel issue.
if you can remember 8th grade earth science simply boil 1 pint of water,add 2 table spoons of sugar,stir until the sugar is dissolved(solution) now pour the surgar water through a coffee filter.
how much surgar solids did the filter just trap?
same with the water the E fuels hold.
now another simple question.
whats the difference between washing a car engine with a hose and steam cleaning?
same thing happens when that watery E crap burns, it steam cleans the lubricants from ALL moving parts it touches.
like I say, god I love the govt marine stimulous package.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: EPA Approves 15% Ethanol Gas

rodbolt

Please don't confuse coexisting with love, plus don't mix the experiences of smaller boats with ones like you just described, these are totally different things.

I can only report what myself and others I fish with (many guides and other serious fisherman) have experienced over the last two decades. It may be that we've run E10 for so long that our fuel handling practices have changed which drastically reduces the problems, or that we don't have a mix of MTBE, ethanol and straight gas, just E10.

If I had a choice I wouldn't use it, but I have no choice, so I make the best of it. And I must say, E10 never crosses my mind until I come to a forum like this where some regions are new to the product and are having extreme problems.


At this point E15 has only been approved for newer cars and its not pushed or legal for outboards, what I fear is ethanol producers will continue to push and eventually have it excepted as the norm for all engines.

By the way, I live on the water and there are boats out front all year long, one has been out there for 3 years straight, it may go for many months at a time with no use. It has been covered with 2 feet of snow in the winter and seen 113* heat in the summer. So far it has never failed to start and run perfectly and there is no evidence of water in the fuel tank.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: EPA Approves 15% Ethanol Gas

the regulator I just got off of about 15 min ago holds 350 gallons of fuel. we just added 270 gallons today.
now you take it and let it sit full all winter and come spring ill pump 6+ gallons of pure water from the tank bottom.
I have done this every spring for the past 2 years.
let that boat sit with 60 gallons, my personal sea pro, and come spring ill pump at least 2 gallons.
never had the issue until E fuels came here in june of 08.
what we reccomend now is to store the boat with as little fuel as possible over the winter and dry the tank at dewinterization.
most my work is on boats with V6 tweins and 150 to 350 HP.
so far yamaha has done well covering fuel related powerhead failures but I think thats going to change some.
and I am not knocking the old 33 ski twin, I owned one for over 10 years and regret selling it.
however it loved fuel so turning over a six gallon tank was easy.
the big issue is TRANSPORTING the E-15.
remember the E is NOT added at the refinery but blended later.
you cant tell me they are going to flush the tanker every time it hauls a load.
take this marina here in wanchese, turns over maybe 10,000 gallons a month, has maybe twice a month fuel delivery.
your telling me that they will haul E-10 fuel for a 5000 gallon delivery?
which is why I test every fuel system job for E fuel.
I have seen it as low as 6% and as high as 30%.
e fuels are simply a scam on the US taxpayer but I am making some of the money back and yes I did buy corn futures and BP stock .
bought about 260 shares of BP some weeks back at 31 dollars a share. almost bought 3300 shares but got chicken.
wish now I would have.
corn closed at just over 5dollars a bushel, made a sweet profit. will go higher as russias crop continues to fail and we divert more from food to fuel production and the food prices climp, as well as fuel prices.
will come to a point, soon, that corn consumption for food,feed and fuel simply outstrips production capeability.
thats when I hope to have about 30K in corn.
so between BP, the commodity market and the govt marine tech stimulous package, I am hoping for at least E25 minimum by 2012.

 

[Dhadley]

Re: EPA Approves 15% Ethanol Gas

NASCAR announced today they will run E15 in the 2011 season. They talked about how all the testing showed an increase in power but never said a word about mileage. GM talks about the L29 and 315 hosepower but 345 on E85. But, they never mention how E85 affects mileage.

To make more power you have to add more fuel, more fuel means less mileage. If more ethanol means less mileage then it should cost less per gallon. I'd go along with that. For cars & trucks. As for the dependance on foriegn oil I think the BP debackle proved how much oil we really have of our own. We shouldn't be buying anyones oil.

 

[DJ]

Re: EPA Approves 15% Ethanol Gas

A lot of good points made.

1. Alcohol attracts (affinity to) water. As Rodbolt explained. We can't stop that. That's its nature.

2. Alcohol contans less BTU's (energy) by volume than does pure gasoline. Thus you use a LOT more. As Dhadley mentioned, nobody talks about that.

3. As the E-fuels migrate across the country, folks that are not used to them and prepare for the use are going to have issues. No question.

4. Most E fuels are "splash mixed" in the tanker. That mixing technique is FAR from accurate. We have the same issue with many Bio Diesel fuels. An exact mixture ratio is a guess, at best, using that method.

In my line of business, I see people pumping gas into diesels and visa versa. The average driver has no clue, or care, of what they are pumping into their tank.

People that pay attention will notice a decrease in fuel economy, with this product.

The driving force is political. There is no doubt about it. But, let's not go there, in the forum. Let's stick to the potential issues that boaters may see.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: EPA Approves 15% Ethanol Gas

I too can only relate my experiences about a long term relationship with E10 and more recently (4 years) running a 2006 Impala on a fairly steady diet of E85. For those who don't understand the "E" numbers, E10 and E15 are 10% and 15% ethanol and 90% or 85% gasoline respectively. E85 is opposite in that it is 85% ethanol and 15% regular gasoline. With over 50,000 miles on the Impala I am fairly confident an engine doesn't give a hoot what fuel it runs so long as it is designed for it. I've indicated previously that a friend of mine has been running an older Ford Ranger pickup on E85 since its arrival. The truck by the way is not "Flex Fuel" capable. Yes -- any of the "E's" result in less fuel economy. Not much of an issue with E10 but as the numbers go up economy does come down. Some contend it is as high as 30% less with E85 vs regular but I have not experienced anywhere near those numbers. When E85 is 40 cents/gallon cheaper than regular I use it. Anything number less than that would simply make me "clean air/less dependent" advocate rather than someone who is saving a couple bucks. Is it a cure-all. Certainly not. Rodbolt is certainly in a position to relate issues with very large boats so one cannot dispute those findings. In my world however, I simply adapt and move on.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: EPA Approves 15% Ethanol Gas

silvertip
when ya get done mixing 6 gallons that last a season and join the real world, ill listen.
after that your simply spouting the party line.
LOOK at the FAA rules for E fuels in aircraft.
THEN look at why.
you guys dont care in the sweetwater that mix 6 gallons to run in your 1966 jonnymerc, ya simply dont get it.
this E sheet simply doesnt work in real boats.
go again. look at the FAA regulations on E fuels. then sit back, have a cool refreshing beverage and figgue out ,,,,, WHY.
here in the world of modern motors with twins and 250 gallons plus tank capcities, it sucks.
E fuels simply suck for MARINE use.
however, i figgured out corn furetues and BP stock.
made over 20K in the past 5 months.
keep the illgals coming cause broccoli stock is on the line.

 

[Bifflefan]

Re: EPA Approves 15% Ethanol Gas

Although the corn belt farmers and politicians certainly push "corn squeezins", it is Archer Daniels Midland that holds the cards in this debate so lets put the blame (or progress) on them as that's where the money is. If there was no progress or at least an attempt at creating a viable alternate fuel mankind would be walking again at some point. Progress generally means certain things we have must be modified or abandoned as support for those things falls by the wayside. I'm certain everyone would like to go back to the good old black rotary phone, or the 78 rpm record player, or the 8-track tape, or the Stanley Steamer. Fact is, one needs to do whatever is necessary to adapt to the situations that arise in life. Failure to do so means you suffer the consequences. Wringing ones hands is not a solution. Taking action is.

Here, Here... Well said...

 

[8hygro]

Re: EPA Approves 15% Ethanol Gas

NASCAR is a MARKETING program for the sponsors...nothing more. Anyone that has spent anytime around performance engines is laughing silly.

The average citizen who partakes in marine hobbies is being taken for a huge ride and being jacked around...that is how it relates to boating.

Incredible...my tolerance for this bs is too short.

8hygro

 

[rodbolt]

Re: EPA Approves 15% Ethanol Gas

grimygopherguts.
but your shoes back on your ignorance is showing.
a 36 regulator with a pair of F350 V8 motors and a genset to keep things cool? 325 gallons isnt a weekend tank full.
above about 4800 RPM your smoking about 70 GPH without the genset.
this guy doesnt mind the 120 mile run to the gulf steam from here to south of ocracoke island and back and staying overnight.
even at a cruise of about 3800 RPM and about 37 MPH it smokes about 40 GPH.
take your shoes back off and do the math.
however for years and years it was always a rule to store tanks full. not now.
325 gallons at 10% e crap means I have at least 32 gallons of E that can hold roughly 20 gallons of pure water that CANNOT be filteredwith conventional fuel water seperators.
most play boats dont have fuel coalescers.
so just to get to the fishing grounds and back is about 240 miles at roughly 37MPH and about 40 GPH.
the guys with the 28' classics with 8.1 and 8.2L inboards typically hold 245 gallons and burn about 18 GPH at about 25 MPH.

theboatorme.
I know
my oldests sis is mad at me about it.
like I explained to her, I did not cause the spill, I could not contain the spill I DINNA do it.
however I looked at exxon stock historical prices before and after valdez and it got my attention with BP.
just wish my cajones would have allowed me to buy 3300+ shares instead of the 220 or so I did.
cash is in the bank to do it, cajones got small.
but E fuels wil NEVER EVER make us oil independant.
especcially when the govt subsidy for production is so high.
will only make the rich richer and the rest of us suffer.
like I say, this is the biggest scam ever shoved down the US taxpayer throat.
can Brazil go to 100% efuels?
yep but BUT they use surgar cane, far better than corn, and can whack as many as FOUR crops PER year.
here in the states we get ONE corn crop per year.
are there VIABLE alternatives.
yep, hydrogen OR hydrogen peroxide motors.
both work both have been around since WWII.
biggest drawback is distribution, as long as corperate international oil companies hold gasoline distribution they wont allow anything else.
just how it is.
look at the emissions on hydrogen or hydrogen peroxide engines.
dang the brits tried 2H2O motors in subs in WWII, draw back was how to eliminate the O2 bubble trail.
but while aggrevating, the current govt marine tech stimulous program is making me a lot of cash.
will make me a lot more sooner than later I fear.
the NASCAR thing is simply a marketing ploy.
they will redisign the fuel delivery systems and how many nascar drivers run a full race on 8 month old fuel?

 

[pine island fred]

Re: EPA Approves 15% Ethanol Gas

SILVERTIP, why in the world would you burn E85? Are you in the corn growing business? When you read that the EPA has approved an increase of alcohol in fuel, it really means that the increase will be REQUIRED. The gas companies dont want to use it, they are required to buy the stuff. Forces me to subdizise the corn growers, ADM.
Saw this back in 73 after the first gas shortage. A few stations dedicated a pump and tank to what they called GASAHOL. People had a choice between leaded, unleaded and GASAHOL. After they gave the stuff away, the pumps went back to leaded.
RODBOLT, I have not kept up with aircraft fuels but my guess is that the FAA was required to issue some kind of statement concerning E15 and make it sound good. Who in their right mind would pump E15 into their wings when 100LL was available? regards FRED

 

[rodbolt]

Re: EPA Approves 15% Ethanol Gas

unless they changed in in the past few years ethanol wasnt allowed by the FAA for aircraft fuels.
something about the corrosive effects on fuel and engine system parts and some operational instabilities at altidude.
E-10 makes my 08 ranger and the wifes 06 exploror idle rough and dropped the rangers fuel economy by 2 MPG.
E-15 will void both our engine warrentys.
E-15 will void the engine warrenty on any marine engine imported or manufactured by the US.
that includes volvo,and the rest.
first thing we do when an engine has failed is test a sample for E content.
at 15% it will be at the manufactures discretion as to whats covered and whats not.
I know the EPA approved it but will ford send me a letter of approval to use it?
say my ranger or my F150 pops a piston, the tech takes a fuel sample, finds E-15.
now they will blame it on the fuel and I am whiz outta luck.
trust me, its gonna happen and in fact already is.