Electricians - nightmare??

[Bob_VT]

Okay, I am as handy as the nest one for home electricity and really am stumped

PROBLEM: A friend plugged in an electric heater (not my idea) and the lights went out on that circuit instantly. The heater was then unplugged and the breaker was flipped back and forth and still no power.

This outlet is NOT GFIC and it is just in the middle of the wall so there are outlets both before and after ....all dead.

What I have done..... I checked the breakers and they are all on. no power

I opened the breaker box ..... cut the power..... and swapped around two breakers (I considered that the breaker may be faulty) and still no power at any outlet.

I visually inspected the wires ...... but only what I could see running in the basement along the joists until they vanished into the wall construction ... look okay.

Today the plan is to bring along my multi meter but wow am I stumped There are no junction boxes on the line.

Any hints/tips/ideas before I resort to telling this neighbor to call an electrician ? The home is 22 years old (which is considered brand new in this area as compared to my house built in the 1860's )

 

[Bass Tracker TX17]

Re: Electricians - nightmare??

I'm no electrician but I do run new circuits.

check all beakers. make sure you didn't get a feedback and blow a second breaker. Physically turn each one off and on


#2 this happened to me. Check bathroom or other rooms for ground fault tripping.

I lost my outside plug and could not figure out. next day my wife used the ground fault plug in the bathroom. It would not work. went in and reset it.
went back out and checked my outside plug and i had power. My outside outlet is run with the bathroom ground fault......

See if any other circuit is dead...

i would start there

Good luck

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Electricians - nightmare??

I did reset EVERY breaker and there are no GFIC in the home but I will look again.

 

[joed]

Re: Electricians - nightmare??

The high current draw from the heater burnt open a loose connection.
If the entire circuit is dead look from loose connection in the panel. Could be the neutral(white wire). If only part of circuit is dead problem could be in any junction box on the circuit including devices that are still working. If you know the wire routing of the circuit then the problemis in either the last working or the first not working box.

A very common cause of this problem is the back stab push in connection on receptacles. Usually it is the vacuum that tiggers the problem. Move the wires to be under the screws if the back stabs were used.

 

[mike64]

Re: Electricians - nightmare??

I'm no electrician but I do run new circuits.

check all beakers. make sure you didn't get a feedback and blow a second breaker. Physically turn each one off and on


#2 this happened to me. Check bathroom or other rooms for ground fault tripping.

I lost my outside plug and could not figure out. next day my wife used the ground fault plug in the bathroom. It would not work. went in and reset it.
went back out and checked my outside plug and i had power. My outside outlet is run with the bathroom ground fault......

See if any other circuit is dead...

i would start there

Good luck

I was going to say the same thing-- we've had power go out to a couple rooms, but no breaker issues, so it was very puzzling...until I figured out that some idiot had routed power through a GFCI plug in the kitchen, which was tripped. But it sounds like you've ruled that out.

 

[j_martin]

Re: Electricians - nightmare??

Joed is dead on. If you're lucky there's still one working and you can go right to the burned off wire. If not, well pull all the dead outlets off starting with one end, and check the wiring. In my opinion, the punch in wiring should be outlawed.

I wired a big expansion on my house so all the outlets in both bathrooms are on one GFI, and 4 outdoor circuits are fed from the back of 4 GFI's in the kitchen.

Someday, someone's gonna lose there mind on this one.

John

 

[QC]

Re: Electricians - nightmare??

Someday, someone's gonna lose there mind on this one.

Good thing that's not a worry anymore with Bob . . .

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Electricians - nightmare??

GRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrr.....

Yup, the socket outlets are all with wires pushed in.

I have power at the box, at the breaker and tightened the neutrals and the hot. The wires are very clean an tight.

Went to the very first (closest) outlet on the line and got nothing at all on my meter.

I think the problem is in the line from the box to the 1st outlet. No GFIC on any circuits. I was checking this to be a nice guy but I refuse to do the work at this point........ since QC knows ....... I have lost my mind ..... I thought I heard something small hit the floor.

 

[JustJason]

Re: Electricians - nightmare??

Here is a trick you can try to help locate the fault.

pull the breaker out of the panel, and disconnect the wires and leave them out.
With an old lamp cord, strip the wires off it and attach it to a 9 volt battery.
Plug your cord into the wall and go back to the breaker and see if you get 9 VDC on the wires. If you do, then you do not have a short.
If you don't, then go outlet by outlet on the same circuit (sometimes houses are screwy, and outlets on many floors will share a circuit) Finding your 9VDC as you go. Once you think you've found it, move your power source to the outlets before the 1 your testing, and the outlet after it to help confirm where the short is in the wall.
Sometimes it helps to bring some scrap paper and draw out the circuit as you go along.

 

[i386]

Re: Electricians - nightmare??

I had a similar problem that took me a couple of weeks to track down. I lost power while using a shop vac. It was like what was said before. A loose connection inside a wire nut had burned open. I had to open every switch and outlet box on the circuit to find it. I made 3 trips into the bad box before I finally found the problem. The original wire nut was too small for the 3 wires it was connecting. I guess too much current through a small conductor (bad connection) caused it to burn like a fuse.

I thought I had gone crazy too.

 

[j_martin]

Re: Electricians - nightmare??

GRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrr.....

Yup, the socket outlets are all with wires pushed in.

I have power at the box, at the breaker and tightened the neutrals and the hot. The wires are very clean an tight.

Went to the very first (closest) outlet on the line and got nothing at all on my meter.

I think the problem is in the line from the box to the 1st outlet. No GFIC on any circuits. I was checking this to be a nice guy but I refuse to do the work at this point........ since QC knows ....... I have lost my mind ..... I thought I heard something small hit the floor.

They're coming to take me away
He He Ho Ho Ha Ha,
to the funny farm......

It is extremely unlikely that a wire will fail in the middle. There's a connection or wire nut somewhere that failed.

The one caveat is if the wire is a different kind when it gets to the box, someone may have made an illegal splice in the wall somewhere. That's pretty hard to find.

You can get a wire tracker like is used for telephone wires. Disconnect the wire (all 3 conductors) in the breaker box and put the signal generater between any of the 3 conductors and the neutral bar. You should be able th follow the wire in the walls with the probe. Hook it up like I say, or you won't get a strong enough signal to follow inside the walls.

That won't test the integrity of the wire, only locate it physically.

GB makes a good one for about 30 bucks at Menards.

hope it helps
John

 

[jlinder]

Re: Electricians - nightmare??

The wire nuts are another possible problem. I have had a circuit open because one burned (probably was not tight to begin with).

Look at any wires tied together with wire nuts in the outlet boxes so they can feed the other plugs. Keep in mind the wire from the breaker box may go first to a junction box and split there.

Good luck

 

[joed]

Re: Electricians - nightmare??

Cables in walls very seldom fail, unless you have wildlife(rats, mice, squirrels) chewing on them. Then anything goes. You most likely have a connection somewhere between the receptacle you are checking and the panel.

 

[fishrdan]

Re: Electricians - nightmare??

No GFIC on any circuits.

I had a similar problem, wife was curling her hair while I was using the shop vac in the back yard, all outlets in the bathrooms dead and the back yard also. No GFI's and I didn't have time to figure out the wiring problem...

2 months later I was moving some stuff around in the garage and low and behold,,, I found a popped GFI buried behind some boxes. The cheap a** builder put all the "should be GFI outlets" on 1 circuit connected to a GFI in the garage.

 

[coastalcruiser]

Re: Electricians - nightmare??

not suggesting you do any work but if you do, turn the main breaker off.
like just jjason said you can use a 9 volt or a car battery to check out all wires,
I use alligator clips and try one wire at a time. just attach the tester to ground
helps if you know what breakers are for what room.
Its the same as wiring the boat instrument panel. you put power on one wire at the dash then go to the engine area and hunt it down with a tester, mark it and move on....i got my boat with all the wires on the dash disconnected
I suggest getting an electrition that works on the side, these guys are certified and will make sure you have the correct polarity on all your plugs, this could save a life of a loved one and maybe yourself

 

[Rickairmedic]

Re: Electricians - nightmare??

I suggest getting an electrition that works on the side, these guys are certified and will make sure you have the correct polarity on all your plugs, this could save a life of a loved one and maybe yourself

This advice not only bothers me but also quite honestly pisses me off . I own a small HVAC company and get asked regularly if I work on the side I explain to the homeowners asking such a question that I own the damn company and that getting someone who " works on the side " isnt really the best idea . Generaly they have no insurance to cover them or you if they get hurt while working on your property and also should your house burn to the ground or blow up your not going to have a legg to stand on or their insurance company to go after . I know everybody wants to save a buck but your life or your families life isnt really worth the few dollars you are going to save using someone who " works on the side " . You are also hurting the company who that person works for which is most likely ( if its a local company ) owned by someone else with a family that likes to eat and pay their bills . I wish people who dont own a business had the slightest idea how much it costs to own and operate a company ( even a small one ) .



Rick

 

[dr_bowtie]

Re: Electricians - nightmare??

if there is power at the breaker...(you tested it right..? flipped it on and tested to make sure it had power at the terminal)

and no power at the first outlet you seen then that means that is not the 1st stop in the wire...the outlets probably feed from a switch power feed...I would pull the switches close also...

 

[Rickairmedic]

Re: Electricians - nightmare??

Ok now that I am off my soap box Bob I agree theres a wire loose in the circuit . I would pull all outlets in the circuit and check each of the boxes for loose wires in ( stabbed outlets ) and also check the wirenuts in those boxes .



Rick

 

[coastalcruiser]

Re: Electricians - nightmare??

Rickairmedic This advice not only bothers me but also quite honestly pisses me off

Sorry Rick,
I see your point.

So why are you suggesting the neighbor do it himself? The electrical service in a home is off limits to the homeowner and by working on it voids his homeowners insurance.

 

[lowkee]

Re: Electricians - nightmare??

The electrical service in a home is off limits to the homeowner and by working on it voids his homeowners insurance.

That isn't true. I have a special permit which allows me to do my own electrical work. You take a slimmed down electrician's exam and you can do anything from an addition to a complete re-wire to your own property.