Electric and hybrid vehicles...

[generator12]

Opinions on these?

Concerns include gas mileage of course. Also trip radius when beginning with a fully charged battery and a full tank of fuel.

What is your experience with battery life? Battery disposal?

I have an acquaintance who is considering a hybrid and we have discussed these questions. At that point I realized that I have no idea of the answers and, with these things becoming more and more prominent, I think it would be a good idea to know more about them.

Your experience?

 

[HT32BSX115]

Howdy,


I have a few friends that drive a Prius and last year I had a long talk with the Chevy rep at the county Fair.

When I ask those Prius friends about mileage with their Prius, they usually start out by saying "I don't drive it right". When I ask, for details, they tell me about acceleration and deceleration. (which means, if you're behind one being driven "right" you want to either run into it, push it, or "roar" around it!!!)

When I said lets compare (with my VW diesel) driving a 400 mile round trip on the freeway in the summer driving 70-80 mph, they tell me that the Prius is not really designed for extended highway driving. (because it cannot get the highway mileage of a Golf/Jetta driving 70mph with the A/C on)

I asked very specific questions of the Chevy salesman at the fair.

The Volt is essentially a Chevy Cruze with a (big) battery and a gasoline driven generator that drives an electric motor when the batty goes dead.

It also weighs a full 500lbs more than the comparable gas model (and costs twice as much)

Starting out on your long trip, it gets VERY high "gas" mileage..... (it doesn't use any at all!!)

Then when the battery finally goes, the engine starts and you're getting around 30-35 MPG because the engine is now powering a fairly heavy car (through a generator and motor) AND recharging the battery.

The VOLT would be my choice though because it's a VERY NICE car, and if you're not going very far (and you can plug it in when you get there, you could conceivably not start the engine at all.

The Nissan Leaf OTOH, will literally "Strand" you if you mis-calculate! (it has no engine to start and "save" you )


I did speak to a guy that was VERY happy with his $120,000 Tesla. He told me about how it's "Zero Emissions" and how much sheer power it has! And uses no gas(or diesel etc)

There's NO WAY anyone can tell me that they are zero emission. It takes a LOT of emissions to manufacture those batteries and unless you charge it exclusively using solar, wind, Hydroelectric or (possibly) Nuclear, ....there is NOTHING zero emission about it!

Also, with any electric car, they still don't have "refueling" right......... The Tesla is getting close, the super fast chargers will charge a dead battery in about 40 minutes. But think about it........ If you're driving your car for business or other critical "got to be there on-time" reasons, you BETTER NOT have to stop for fuel or you'll be seriously LATE.

Tesla (and others) are installing those chargers all over the place. I don't think they even charge to use them (yet!!!)

Don't think it'll be free for long AND don't think the government will allow anyone to drive for free. Eventually, electric cars will likely cost the same to operate (PER-MILE) as any other car.

Many states are already testing a driving tax on a per mile basis. Some more "progressive" governments will make electric car "per-mile" taxes less than gas/diesel taxes until a point.......then once everybody is "hooked", they'll make the taxes whatever they want to make up the difference. And all the charging stations will will absolutely start making making money too.......

I still think electric cars are in the future.......just not MY future!


Cheers,


Rick


I quite frankly don't understand how anyone can justify the Tesla right now (other than for emotional reasons) because you can buy 4 brand new pretty nice cars for the price of 1 Tesla. (also consider what the insurance on a $100,000+ car figure in the total cost)

 

[jbcurt00]

....
I quite frankly don't understand how anyone can justify the Tesla......

Because of 2 simple phrases:

Insane Mode

and

Ludicrous Mode

:facepalm:

After 6yrs of ownership, my parents are in the fence about replacing a hybrid sedan w another. They love it, but the upfront extra cost took a long time to recoup at 42mpg +/-

 

[Scott Danforth]

Price out a set of batteries and a motor controller for a prius. Factor that into the cost of ownership. I personally do not like the prius so I am a bit biased. I do prefer a vw diesel

 

[NYBo]

We had a first generation Prius at my old job. Even at 12 years old, it was able to hit 48-50 MPG on the highway.

 

[RGrew176]

I might consider leasing one but I would never buy one for a long term use.

 

[WIMUSKY]

I'll have to talk to my buddy. He has a Prius. I don't think he's had to replace any batteries and has had it for quite awhile. I'm sure there's plenty of miles on it by now....

 

[HT32BSX115]

We had a first generation Prius at my old job. Even at 12 years old, it was able to hit 48-50 MPG on the highway.

Was that 48-50 MPG after the batteries were dead? I.E. After 250 miles or so running at 65-70 on a flat highway? (or combined mileage including "city" driving?)
Even Toyota got sued and had to start telling the truth about the Prius mileage. (they were accused of fibbing and their MPG indicators were not telling the truth)


Even the comparable size gas model car will not get that kind of mileage. There's nothing in a Prius that will make it get that kind of mileage after the batteries are dead. AND, when the batteries are dead, they're just dead weight, along with the electric components of the drive train.

The Prius REALLY shines in stop and go traffic, because the engine shuts down at stop signs and signals, AND it takes advantage of regenerative braking.

BUT, the car must be driven such that you MUST accelerate slow enough to NOT start the engine and DEcelerate slow enough to NOT use, or minimize the use of friction braking so the battery is discharged minimally during acceleration and charged (to the max) during the deceleration to stop. The PROBLEM is that you literally pizz OFF everyone around you because you have to drive like an "old woman" to maximize that mileage.

I have driven behind a Prius.........many times that was being driven "correctly". I wanted to "PUSH" them right out of the way because they were accelerating and decelerating so slowly. AND on a freeway on-ramp........ Let's just say that......when driven "correctly" ..........there's some horns honking!

 

[NYBo]

As far as I could tell, the batteries were still functioning. This mileage was on trips of around 35 miles, with about 30 being highway (55 to 65 MPH).

 

[keith2k455]

I don't get the hybrid thing. My turbo sonata gets 36 - 38 hey aND 22 spirited mpg in the city.

For electric, if you get a Tesla, you're not in it for the mpg. That's like asking what mpg you get in a corvette or viper.

 

[bonz_d]

Before we bought our new Kia we talked with the dealer about hybrids and they kindly started to talk to us of the downfalls if you are ever in an accident and they have to use the jaws of live on it to get you out. Made us change our minds rather quickly. Was told that they do need to disable the batteries before they can cut you out for risk of fire.

 

[HT32BSX115]

For electric, if you get a Tesla, you're not in it for the mpg.

The Tesla is a truly amazing vehicle. It has incredible power and they're as nice inside as any $100,000 Benz, BMW or other ultra expensive car.

They are planning cars that are a little more affordable for the rest of us I presume.

But they'll have to be capable of going 300 miles or more on a charge and be able to charge in about the same amount of time it takes to pump 20 or so gallons of liquid fuel.

1 gallon of gasoline will produce approx 112,000 btu of energy. a gallon of diesel will do about 128,000.

The stuff is easy to produce, transport, transfer and we have the resources and infrastructure to make it.

It's going to be quite a while before electric power storage can be equal in every way to include cost and convenience.

It will absolutely happen. But many of us will not be around to see it.............

 

[southkogs]

I haven't been as impressed with electric vehicles as I wanted to be. For the quiet and comfort they can provide, the practicality (for me) hasn't really materialized.

The exception has been the Tesla. It's the only electric car that I've actually considered at this point, and went as far as to look into. I can't make the math work out, and can't make it practical enough for me - but if I didn't have somewhat regular day-trips, it would be real close even on a new Tesla. The car is beautiful, comfortable and performs very well (They've been turning in some great performances on the track).

I know two guys that have the sedan, and both have said that the customer support is astounding.

 

[fhhuber]

When electric vehicles deliver the needed performance at a cost competitive to the gasoline/diesel vehicles, then you won't see many gas/ diesel vehicles getting sold and the electrics will take over the streets.

I kind of expect alcohol fuel hybrids to be dominant before the pure electrics due to range at speed. Sure, some of the electrics are claiming 80 mile range... in town, at 25 mph top speed. Power required is proportional to speed squared, so that range drops rapidly when you go faster. Twice as fast = 1/4 the range.

Drop in an appx 25 hp (gas/diesel/biofuel) generator and you can just about keep up with the power demand of the electric vehicle at 60 mph. (without AC)

Then we get to the demands of things that we now demand as standard on a car... That AC system needs appx 5 hp to keep the average 4 dr compact sedan cool in the summer... or in Texas maybe 10 HP. Its harder to cool a car driving down the road than it is to cool your whole house.
That 2 to 3 mpg you lose running the AC of your gas powered car will destroy your electric car's range.

There are simply too many things remaining to be solved for electric vehicles other than for short commute and in-town vehicles.
The best batteries for range are the type that are blowing up in the "hoverboards". While the battery charging and balancing systems can be fixed to cure the "hoverboards" (well... so they don't just randomly burn), they are still a severe fire hazard in any wreck. These batteries are also EXPENSIVE. Flooded lead acid are safer and cheaper but bulky and heavy.

Lots of experience dealing with assorted batteries and charging systems. I fly RC models with up to 5000 watt (appx 6.25 hp) electric power systems. Plus I have a decent solar power system built onto a cargo trailer with enough power to keep my refrigerator running if the power grid goes down for a few days. (might run short if it rains all week) I've gone through ALL of the assorted battery types.

When e-power cars are practical, you'll find me in the front of the line to get one. I don't see it happening for another 5 to 25 years.

 

[gm280]

While I would like to own a "Zero Emission" vehicle, we are not there yet. I don't want to plan any trip around the vehicle. If I can't get in and drive for any distance without worry of running out of a battery charge, then I don't want it. We are fooling ourselves with electric cars. We are really swapping from gasoline (oil) vehicles to charging via the "Grid". Now think if everybody made that swap. Our present grid would collapse. So we would have to build more power station using whatever means to run them. So I don't see that working in the present or near future. And to manufacture the batteries and dispose of them takes both energy and special efforts. So while we think we are helping the environment, are we really?

 

[WIMUSKY]

I don't get the hybrid thing. My turbo sonata gets 36 - 38 hey aND 22 spirited mpg in the city.

For electric, if you get a Tesla, you're not in it for the mpg. That's like asking what mpg you get in a corvette or viper.

My wife's Chrysler 200S all-wheel drive, the hotrod model, gets 33. Completely agree with the rest of your comment.... And if I have enough money to buy a Tesla, I'll spend a little more and get a Vette....

Talked to my bud. His Prius is an '05 with almost 200k. The main battery is original and he replaced the auxiliary once. He did say the mileage very's depending on how you drive it. That pretty much goes with any vehicle for the most part.....

I drove it once for a couple hours. I kinda was surprised, it wasn't a bad car. Just don't tell my other friends.... :laugh:

 

[DeepCMark58A]

The zero emission superiority is pretty funny considering the power to recharge the Tesla is a coal fired generation plant.

 

[jkust]

One of my good friends has a 2008 Prius that he bought new...literally they were flying off the dealer lots so fast back then, you'd put your name on the list and accept whatever one you got when your number came up. He's just now getting to the point of wanting to offload it. I think he's spend 800$ total on work done to it at 130k miles....it still even has the oem brakes in it. Of course here in MN, his mileage even when the battery was new is substantially lower in the winter. Extremely ugly car and very cheap feel to it but has been bullet proof for him. He is disappointed that it is worth so little resale. I would have though it would be worth a bit more just because it is a hybrid too.

Another buddy of mine has a Ford Cmax he bough brand new and again in MN, in the winter with no accessories going, meaning no heat or fan or blower, he gets a total range of 12 (twelve) miles. If he uses the heat, his range is less yet but he is a crazy hyper miler who will bundle up and deal with the extreme cold commute.

My neighbor (next cul de sac over) has a Tesla and other than looking cool as it drives past, I can't really comment since I don't know him at all.

Our cold temps seem to kill a lot of the upside for some of these alternative vehicles.

 

[bruceb58]

A friend of mine has a Tesla. He did not buy it for the environmental aspect. He bought it because its is one of the fastest cars he has ever driven and he loves tech. Also one of the fastest braking cars on the road which is why Teslas get rear ended a lot. Of course he also owns a few other vehicles. I don't know a single person who owns an electric only vehicle as his only car.

I was up in Paso Robles at a hotel one rainy night watching a Tesla owner with his extension cord trying to find an outlet at the hotel we were both staying at. I was thinking to myself how glad I didn't own one of these.

My friend at work owns a Leaf. We provide free electric charging at our work. His range has dropped so much since he bought it that I don't think he can get home if we didn't have charging. Since his vehicle is less than 5 years old and his battery range has dropped below 70%, he can get a new battery under warranty. If he had to buy a new battery, it would run $5K. If you run the numbers, not sure you can save enough on gas when you factor in the potential upfront cost of the car and a battery change in the future.

ONLY reason I would buy an electric car is if I was commuting and I wanted to take advantage of car pool lanes which you can use with a zero emission vehicle.

 

[HT32BSX115]

.it still even has the oem brakes in it.

I just did the brakes for the first time on my wifes 2009 Honda CR-V 105,000 miles. Bought it new.

I bought a new 3/4T Diesel Suburban in 1994. I put 200,000 miles on it the 20 years I owned it (sold it in 2014) ....... I did the front brakes twice, replaced the front rotors once, and replaced the rear brake shoes at 100,000miles!

Another buddy of mine has a Ford Cmax he bough brand new and again in MN, in the winter with no accessories going, meaning no heat or fan or blower, he gets a total range of 12 (twelve) miles. If he uses the heat, his range is less yet but he is a crazy hyper miler who will bundle up and deal with the extreme cold commute.

My neighbor (next cul de sac over) has a Tesla and other than looking cool as it drives past, I can't really comment since I don't know him at all.

Our cold temps seem to kill a lot of the upside for some of these alternative vehicles.

Yeah. All the great "mileage" claims NEVER include using Heat or A/C