drive slowly drifts down...

94OMC

Seaman
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
51
Is it bad that my boat's drive slowly drifts down when on the trailer? I suppose there is an internal leak somewhere and that this might make it a little tricky to keep the boat trimmed properly (in my mind is seems that the prop thrust would want to make the drive go full-down).

Are the hydraulic rams serviceable?
 

Haut Medoc

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Jun 29, 2004
Messages
10,645
Re: drive slowly drifts down...


Yup, you have a leak somewhere.....
It would be good to make sure it is not external, but there are rebuild/reseal kits available.....:)
 

kmongar

Seaman
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
54
Re: drive slowly drifts down...

94OMC,

My 95 VP 5.0 SX Cobra is doing the same thing! I haven't had a chance to check into it yet but will be looking into it in the next month or so. If you figure it out please post the solution or send me an e-mail.
thanks
Kevin
kmongar@arb.ca.gov
 

johnbo

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Messages
165
Re: drive slowly drifts down...

Hi,

This seems to be a pretty common problem. My '96 has the same issue. No fluid loss, no drips, and the fluid looks good. The finish on the cylinder rods look pretty good.

One question, after scanning the archives, I can see various comments and recommendations that replacing the cylinder is the only route and the Volvo doesn't even sell the replacement parts. Is this true for this vintage?

The reason that I ask is that there is a Volvo part number (3854247) that claims to be a reseal kit for the tilt rams.

I've seen recommendations to take them to a hydraulic shop, but I'd rather use the rebuild kit if this is really available (and the right part).

Thanks,

johnbo
 

tommays

Admiral
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
6,768
Re: drive slowly drifts down...

Without a test manifold like merc has which will check the pump units output presure and the internal check valves abilty to hold presure after the pump is stoped

Your just guessing as it could be the pump OR left OR right ram :confused:


With some fittings and a high prressure guage you should be able to test and OMC/Volvo unit also



Tommays
 

whywhyzed

Banned
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Feb 1, 2005
Messages
1,871
Re: drive slowly drifts down...

kits for the Merc rams are like $12 each side...
Cobra? - dunno - probably have to buy individual seals, but Sierra might have a kit. All drive manufacturers use off the shelf hydraulic seals, like regular ol' T-seals and o-rings, so they're all serviceable.
 

Bondo

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Apr 17, 2002
Messages
70,992
Re: drive slowly drifts down...

Your just guessing as it could be the pump OR left OR right ram

Ayuh,........

Personally,........
I've seen more Failed Valving than I have Failed Rams.............
 

flabum

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
Messages
567
Re: drive slowly drifts down...

You can islotae the problem between the ram and pump easily byr trimming the drive all the way up and supporting it. Go to the hardware store and get two 1/8 inverted flare plugs. Remove the lines from one of the rams one at a time and put the plugs in the ram. Remove the other ram from the drive. With the one ram plugged off, remove the support and see if it drifts down. Do the same procedure with the other ram. If it drifts down with either ram, there is your problem, if it doesn't drift down with either ram, the problem is in the pump.
 

johnbo

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Messages
165
Re: drive slowly drifts down...

Thanks for the ideas. I knew about the manifold, but didn't expect to be able to find one easily.

I've got a question for you on the plugging of the ports on the rams, would you expect any significant fluid loss during the plugging process?

The reason that I ask, is that trying to sort out the difference between an air bubble and a seal leak might be a bit tough.

For a half-assed approach, could I deattach one of the rams mechanically, and see if the problem was still there? The only thing that I can think of that would be a problem is that the leakage could still occur in the unused cylinder.

Of course the gauge would probably help sort out things faster. As on my boat, the drift can take a couple of hours or a day or more. Might have to see what it would take to cobble something together.

Thanks,

johnbo
 

Bondo

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70,992
Re: drive slowly drifts down...

I've got a question for you on the plugging of the ports on the rams, would you expect any significant fluid loss during the plugging process?

Ayuh,........

There'll be oil loss,....... But Not Significant............

Unless you try it with the drive Up,........
Then there'll be much more oil loss,+ it'll probably put a Knot in your noggin.........

Flabum's idea is a Good 1,.........

I believe you'll find the fittings are the same as common automotive Brake Lines......
 

flabum

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
Messages
567
Re: drive slowly drifts down...

I've got a question for you on the plugging of the ports on the rams, would you expect any significant fluid loss during the plugging process?

Minimal

As on my boat, the drift can take a couple of hours or a day or more. Might have to see what it would take to cobble something together.

Thanks,

johnbo


If you were to put all the weight on a plugged off ram that was leaking internally, it would drift faster.
 

flabum

Chief Petty Officer
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Feb 17, 2007
Messages
567
Re: drive slowly drifts down...

Ayuh,........


I believe you'll find the fittings are the same as common automotive Brake Lines......

He could take an complete line off and take it to the store with him to match up a plug or cap.
 

whywhyzed

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Messages
1,871
Re: drive slowly drifts down...

plugging the ports on the rams is not a valid way to test a double acting unblalanced cylinder for internal leakage. Even if the piston seals are totally gone, the rod will only retract a little bit- because you are adding rod as it "drifts", and oil doesn't compress, it wont retract all the way. The oil leaking past the seal from the base end has more volume so it doesn't fit in the rod end...eventually the whole cylinder just pressurizes and holds the load.
This in and of itself rules out leaking piston seals ...*sort of*... combined with a slight leak of the thermal expansion valve or relief valve, a bypassing piston seal can sort of work together with the leaky valve to make the cylinder drift in.

There is also a "manual release" valve on Cobra trim pumps- the manual release valve is there to let a technician lower the drive without d.c. power and without spilling oil - it basically opens a leak from the base end ("up") port to the reservoir so the drive will drop. make sure that hasn't been backed out - I think it just takes a slot screwdriver and is sort of beside the one motor housing mount screw.

Besides, trying to purge every bit of air out while installing the plugs is impossible, and air does compress, so you'll just end up more confused.

The easy way to check for one bypassing ram is to simply listen with a screwdriver handle to your ear or a stethoscope if you have one while someone raises the drive or attempts to while it's already fully raised. You will hear if oil is bypassing the seal on the piston.

I been making my living working on hydraulics for 20 years and I now teach it for a living.... your ears are good for diagnostics...

I get the students to remove the seals from a cylinder and then we try to make it retract... :) it won't - oil only compresses .5% at 1000 psi.
A balanced (double end rod) cylinder will retract, but sterndrive trim cylinders are unbalanced (more volume in the base end than rod end)

In case it is ever suggested, what you DON'T want to EVER do is plug the rod end of the cylinder and try to use the pump to raise or extend the cylinder by using the pump to force oil in the base end (large effective area end). This creates a pressure intensifier and can blow the cylinder open dangerously.

Be safe when working around fluid power. Safety Glasses are a must, goggles better - never go near a pinhole leak (indicated by misting of fluid around high pressure connections and hoses) High pressure mineral oil can penetrate your skin and get in your bloodstream, causing all kinds of problems. One study quoted at FPSI reports 48% amputation rate with skin penetration accidents with fluid power.
 

johnbo

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Mar 19, 2006
Messages
165
Re: drive slowly drifts down...

Man, this is why I like this forum. Great info. I have a couple of questions from your lesson in hydraulics.

1) When you mentioned that the trim rams are unbalanced, is this because the surface area of the piston is different on the different ends. Presumably, this is due to the surface area of the rod diameter being subtracted from the surface area on the piston itself.

2) When you talked about testing by listening for oil bypassing this piston seal, I presume that this would be with gravity or a large friend pressing down against the raised outdrive. It would seem that the racket that the trim pump makes would overwhelm a seal leak.

3) Based on your statement that the seals are not likely to cause a total retraction of the ram, plus that of Bondo's observation that the pump values are a more common problem. It sure sounds like I should be looking at the pump body.

4) Finally, without using the special manifold (I'm not clear what the internal plumbing would be), is there a simple way to check that the pump check valve is seeping. I'm thinking about some way to apply a known pressure to the outdrive side of the lines.

While this problem is more of an annoyance for me, the engineer in me, hates things that don't work. I really liked your explanation of what is going on.

I definitely agree with the warnings. I knew someone who was showing off with a airless paint sprayer and sprayed his hand with oil based stain. Ended up losing all but one finger. Wanna guess which one?

Later,

johnbo
 

whywhyzed

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Re: drive slowly drifts down...

1) When you mentioned that the trim rams are unbalanced, is this because the surface area of the piston is different on the different ends. Presumably, this is due to the surface area of the rod diameter being subtracted from the surface area on the piston itself.

Yes, exactly. Circle one side, annulus (donut) other side. The greater the rod dia, the greater the ratio.

2) When you talked about testing by listening for oil bypassing this piston seal, I presume that this would be with gravity or a large friend pressing down against the raised outdrive. It would seem that the racket that the trim pump makes would overwhelm a seal leak.

The pump sound is actually not an issue... If you compare what you hear in one cylinder vs. the other... I'm used to having diesel engines running on the machines I work on. But if you can politely ask your fattest friend without them catching on, should be fine too.

3) Based on your statement that the seals are not likely to cause a total retraction of the ram, plus that of Bondo's observation that the pump values are a more common problem. It sure sounds like I should be looking at the pump body.

disassembling, visual inspection, cleaning in solvent might either wash debris out of a check valve or relief or you will see a damaged part/broken spring etc. - The Seloc Cobra manual has all the pictures of what you will find in there.

4) Finally, without using the special manifold (I'm not clear what the internal plumbing would be), is there a simple way to check that the pump check valve is seeping. I'm thinking about some way to apply a known pressure to the outdrive side of the lines.

that's something we do a lot of in heavy equipment - pump back into lines and force port reliefs to open with a porta power type pump with a gauge on it, but wouldn't recommend here because it's probably faster and easier to just disassemble the pump and manifold and there's no specs. or experience to say what is normal doing it that way. Plus, those porta power pumps can make 10,000 psi which is dangerous when people start shopping and end up with cast plumbing fittings rated for 150 psi ... I've even seen people attach 2 grease hoses together on their grease guns with those...scary..

Check that manual release valve...
 

johnbo

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Mar 19, 2006
Messages
165
Re: drive slowly drifts down...

Thanks for the feedback. I'll take a crack at this when I get home this weekend. I've got a set of OEM Volvo manuals for the drive and trim system. I'm going to study them for a bit and figure out what I'm about to get into.

I've been traveling for the last two weeks, so I'm eager to get home and do something.

Later,

johnbo
 

Robj

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Mar 22, 2007
Messages
1,441
Re: drive slowly drifts down...

I haven't read all the posts, but an easy way to figure it out would be to remove the hoses from the non-pressure side of the cylinder with the leg raised and look for oil leaking out that port where the hose was removed from. If you see oil, it is bypassing the piston in the cylinder. If this is too hard, then remove non-pressure hose from the pump and look for signs of oil.

Have a great day,

Rob.
 

whywhyzed

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Re: drive slowly drifts down...

I haven't read all the posts, but an easy way to figure it out would be to remove the hoses from the non-pressure side of the cylinder with the leg raised and look for oil leaking out that port where the hose was removed from. If you see oil, it is bypassing the piston in the cylinder. If this is too hard, then remove non-pressure hose from the pump and look for signs of oil.

Have a great day,

Rob.

That works great too. If it's retracting and you see oil - bad piston seal. That will even show you which ram has the bad seal. If it's retracting and no oil, then it's leaking back through valving in the pump.
 

94OMC

Seaman
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
51
Re: drive slowly drifts down...

Thanks for all the tips. I'll have to check my trim/tilt system in the spring when I get the drive back on the boat.
 
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