Connection between Merc and Yamaha?

[scoutabout]

Hi folks -- this looks like a fine spot for some boating -- looking forward to the voyage.

Altough I've been messing about on the water for close on 30 years in everything from kayaks to cabin cruisers, 2006 marks my first foray into 4-stroke outboards.

I just bought a '04 Scout Dorado 175 with a 90hp Yamaha 4-stroke. What a fine motor. Clean, quiet, powerful (relatively speaking, of course) and just all around generally marvelous.

Anyway, I spent the greater part of the afternoon taking shelter from the freezing rain in the carport poking around under the hood and getting familiar with my new friend.

Then tonight I was checking out photos online of a '06 115 hp Merc 4-stroke and was suprised to see that, apart from the shape of the cowling, the two motors are identical... Same block design as far as I can tell, same wiring, same position of components like oil filter, dipstick, fuel filter, starter, air intake, everything. (Actually one difference was that my engine is the last year before Yamaha went to fuel injection on the 90 while the Merc was indeed carbless)

Now, my Yamaha has a sticker that says Made in Japan, but I doubt that Merc sports such a thing. What gives and who actually designed this motor...Merc or Yamaha? Inquiring minds and all that...

 

[JUSTINTIME]

Re: Connection between Merc and Yamaha?

same motors
different cdi units

 

[DJ]

Re: Connection between Merc and Yamaha?

Was a joint venture between Merc and Yam. As mentioned, same engines, different electronics, to some degree. The JV has since evaporated.

It really doesn't matter where it was assembled. The name on the hood determines where the money goes. Yam.=Japan, Merc.=USA.

 

[scoutabout]

Re: Connection between Merc and Yamaha?

Thanks guys -- joint venture indeed. A little research indicates that it was a partnership of sufficient interest to the US Federal Trade Commission that they hauled Yamaha and Brunswick Corp on the carpet for an anti-trust investigation which ultimately resulted in it being broken up.

Apparently Mercury, the vastly dominant player in the marine engine industry, was seen as actually preventing Yamaha from competing properly by forming this alliance. Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer, eh? :devil:

As for who made what, scuttlebut from other sites would seem to indicate that powerheads were designed by Yamaha and possibly built by both. Gearcases, tilt and trim mechanisms, and controls were built/sourced separately per the name on the cowling.

I must say, after having two Merc two-strokes suffer major internal failures and an Alpha One outdrive eat up its gimbal ring and bearing prematurely, I'm more than ready to embrace a Yamaha design. I've been loyal to Merc a long time but have come to the sad conclusion that they don't stand up -- at least for me they haven't. I know for a lot of people they have been great. *cue slings and arrows at the new guy*

 

[DJ]

Re: Connection between Merc and Yamaha?

Scoutabout,

I really like the boat you purchased. Scouts are very well built. Next to an older Whaler, that would be my first choice.

I wouldn't let an inspection of the engine determine whether it is any good or not.

I've never had a two stroke fail. Maintenance-lack of, bad fuel, etc. kills two strokes and I'm not a Merc. fan.

Gimbal bearings also require maintenance. Yamaha was in the I/O market but not here any longer.

I AM NOT saying you didn't maintain your engines but you mention two types of failures that sure are seen allot and almost always attributed to that.

To be honest, I've NEVER seen a two stroke fail due to an inherent design or manufacturing defect, Ficht's excluded.

Your new Yam. requires some maintenance that your old two strokes did not. I suspect by your initial impression, that you will maintain it to perfection. Most foreign buyers (especially new ones) do.

In my book, you can't judge one over the other unless one has maintained both at least representatively the same. However your last paragraph pretty much somes up the fact, IMHO, that you have already made up your mind and nothing will change it.

I'm really not trying to be harsh, but I have been in industry a long time and changing peoples opinions based on what happened over a life time is next to impossible. People, today, will base an opinion about a product they have had for six months against one based on 30 years of prior experience.

I live in Arizona, I see allot of 50's, 60's and 70's American iron on the road (you know the supposedly junk ones) and an 80's Toyota is RARE. There were plenty sold, just not around anymore.

I have my biases, you bet I do. I'll always give the American nameplate the benefit of the doubt. I have allot history with great products to back it up. My last forays into foreign outboards were disastrous. One still is.

The other folks on this board know how I feel. Just watch, the arrows will be coming my way.

 

[Texasmark]

Re: Connection between Merc and Yamaha?

Ok DWJ since you opened this can of worms, why is it that the only old iron p/u out there is Chev......and don't give me this crap that they were better cause I know better......is it the fact that the owners are all just STUPID and the smart ones can earn a living and buy a new truck? :|

Mark

 

[DJ]

Re: Connection between Merc and Yamaha?

Ok DWJ since you opened this can of worms, why is it that the only old iron p/u out there is Chev......and don't give me this crap that they were better cause I know better......is it the fact that the owners are all just STUPID and the smart ones can earn a living and buy a new truck?

Please Clarify. You lost me.

 

[bassboy1]

Re: Connection between Merc and Yamaha?

is it the fact that the owners are all just STUPID and the smart ones can earn a living and buy a new truck? :|

No. Some of the down to earth people realize that their old truck is still working just fine. Why waste money on a new one. I feel that screams, "I'M A RICH STUCKUP SNOB."

Now to get back to this threads original subject. A merc and a yami are closely related? So this means us anti brunswick people are not allowed to buy a yami either?

 

[scoutabout]

Re: Connection between Merc and Yamaha?

Scoutabout,

I really like the boat you purchased. Scouts are very well built. Next to an older Whaler, that would be my first choice.

Thanks, DWJ -- I'm real excited about the Scout. After dealing with the seriously crappy build quality of my early nineties SeaRay (substandard upholstry, rot-prone floors and stringers, cheap instrumentation) I wanted something that could stand up to the elements, contained no wood, had a minimum of carpet and upholstry to trap moisture, was self-bailing and solidly made.

Sure, I could have bought a brand new mass-produced boat for thousands less than this one cost used and I could have saved myself the 20 hour drive with a trailer from North Carolina back to Canada (Scouts are very rare up here) but, as my wife says, I'm nuts...

Scoutabout,

To be honest, I've NEVER seen a two stroke fail due to an inherent design or manufacturing defect, Ficht's excluded.

Your new Yam. requires some maintenance that your old two strokes did not. I suspect by your initial impression, that you will maintain it to perfection. Most foreign buyers (especially new ones) do.

Well, I've had three Merc outboards and a Mercruiser stern drive -- a mid seventies 40hp (no issues), a late seventies 7.5 hp (conrod failure at about 300 hours), and a mid-eighties 3 cyl 70 hp (impeller failure and fatal overheat right out of the box at 20 hours or so. The impeller wasn't installed properly during the initial motor assembly, a point Merc would not hear of. Three months of wrangling and they still refused my claim. My marina felt so bad they ponied up half the repair cost). The SeaRay was a 3 litre Alpha and was the one with the gimbal issues. The outdrive had been inspected, aligned, always greased, even stored in the lowered position as I was paranoid about the bellows taking a set and cracking.

In my book, you can't judge one over the other unless one has maintained both at least representatively the same. However your last paragraph pretty much somes up the fact, IMHO, that you have already made up your mind and nothing will change it.

haha-- I can get set in my ways but am not quite so stubborn I can't admit there was some plain bad luck in there somewhere. I like to think I take better than average care of my boats and I'm really looking forward to the Scout meeting me halfway due to its good design and quality build.

Anyway, hard to starboard and back on the course of this thread -- it's interesting to see that badge engineering isn't the sole domain of the auto sector.

 

[DJ]

Re: Connection between Merc and Yamaha?

Scoutabout,

I know what you mean about the Scout brand being a little scarce.

There is one dealer on the west coast. If I had bought the Dorado (good choice, by the way-great looking boat )

I would have had to drag it back to Phoenix, from San Diego, about 400 mi. It would have been worth it-I'm sure. I know so, I did the same for a sweet little Whaler .

Any "quality" boat is worth the trouble and "travel time". Tell your wife that. You're not the only one.

Enjoy.

Let us know how that Dorado handles. Frankly, I couldn't care less about the YAM, but I definetely want to know about the boat.8)

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Connection between Merc and Yamaha?

actually in order to compete with the Verado R&D costs merc sued yamaha in an anti-trust suit which the FTC heard and dismissed. that was the end of the merc-yamaha relationship.
yamaha honored thier contract to supply parts and such till 05( i think thats what it was) and then its yamaha's discretion.
some of the smaller yam 4 strokes were merc built,some of the larger were yam built and some used ones powerhead and thier own midsection and lower unit. Honda's used merc lowers for many years on thier 90's.
but with merc opening one 30 million dollar manufacturing plant in china and another proposed and it seems that tohatsu is going to build the smaller merc 4 strokes I cant see purchasing on USA or Japan.
cant help but wonder if that $30,000,000.00 USD plant would have affected the economy of say, Fon Du Lac WI?
but instead of phasing out the yamaha built 200 and 225 mercs they decided to sue to attepmt to increase the yamaha price so the overweight,over hyped and poor performing oil leaking Verado could compete.
the merc dealer beside our shop absolutly hates the verado and the boat builder(B&D boats) acrossed the street is learning to. the last 10 or so they launched 2 failed to start that day and the rest have had constant problems.
I think,like the FICHT, it was brought to market before it was ready and the consumer gets to guiane pig them like the opti-pop motors. yamaha had its share of pains with its early HPDI.
however your 04 yamaha 90 was a solid performer but it WILL NOT tolerate ANY trash in the fuel system for ANY reason.
use the 10 micron fuel water seperator and use stabil in the fuel at each tank and NEVER let it sit more than about 3 months.
each trip out you really need to spend at least 30 min above 4500 RPM to help burn off contaminants in the oil.
you need to prop it to 6000 with a normal load.
4 strokes, if even mildly overpropped, make oil rapidly. EFI made it even worse.
its NOT a car motor so do not treat it as such. its a very compact high performance power plant that was desighned to run in a set of paremeters.
some of the biggest 4 stroke issues I see are over propping,underspeeding, poor fuel quality in the carbs, and the occasional overcooling.all will contaminate the oil with gas.
but they do like to run. while they will also idle a long time they neeed to spend some time in or near the operating range to burn off any contaminates in the oil.
I recently had to deal with an F225 making oil.
computer check indicated about 305 hours. it also indicated something like 275 hours below 1000 RPM. and less than .2 hours above 4000.
so not only did it indicate it was not properly broken in it also indicated excessive low speed operation.
after testing all the fuel,leakdown rates, and cooling system parts and an oil and filter change the issue was resolved by at least a 20- 30 min run on the way home above 4500 RPM.
the poor guy lives about 1 mile from the manns harbor bridge where he trolls for rockfish .
at speeds below 1000 most the 4 stroke blocks and oil sumps will go below 100 degrees and above 4500 will stay somewhere around 180 which is what they like.
while the head may stay above 130 its the block and oil sump that ends up to cold at low speeds.
I understand Honda has gone to a twin T-stat set up. one for the head and one for the block, but I have not actually seen it.

 

[Texasmark]

Re: Connection between Merc and Yamaha?

DWJ, I'll answer you and go back and read the rest of the threads.

I'm talking about the '70's thru 90's vindage trucks on the road today. You just don't see anything but Chevy (not GMC, Chev). Having had several I know from first hand experience that they are just not all that great. I also know that Ford and Dodge weren't all that bad comparatively speaking, matter of fact I'd prefer one over the chev. having had all three.

Gonna post this and get back to the thread.

Mark

 

[Texasmark]

Re: Connection between Merc and Yamaha?

Well rodbolt my man, if you buy a 4 stroke, what for? Fuel economy? Trolling? Clean burning?

I understand the condensation process and hence "making oil". I also understand heat driving out the moisture.

But for the guy that likes to troll and buys a 4 stroke thinking he has "the" trolling engine, looks like the fox is guarding the hen house.

So, back to the real reason for 4 strokers of today....EPA mandated clean up outboards.....like they were the source of any real serious pollution.

Sounds to me like you keep your 2 stroker and just keep some SEA FOAM in the tank. It'll do all of the above. Troll to your heart's content,spend a lot less money, lower the weight, and have fewer parts to breakdown.

My 2c................now back to old Chev trucks 8)

Mark

 

[nevd]

Re: Connection between Merc and Yamaha?

Rodbolt,

Thanks for your comments on water and fuel dilution of oil in 4 stroke outboards. This is a large problem in motors run at low speeds for short distances and the manufacuturers are trying hard to keep the problem quiet.

I would not be prepared to purchase a 4 stroke unless it had thermostatically controlled oil temperature of at least 180F - sounds like Honda is now addressing the problem. I am also told it is addressed in Merc Verado motors, but your critical comments on them indicate they have too many other problems still to resolve. Can anybody clarify what Suzuki have done?

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Connection between Merc and Yamaha?

the $ strokes will troll for hours and hours. so did my 85 120 evinrude.
won a hundred dollar bet with it.
a dummy was arguing with me at Dock of the Bay here in kitty hawk. he bet my 120 2 stroke would not idle to the center span of the old mann's harbor bridge and back.
it did just fine, took almost 4 hours and more beer than I care to discuss, yes I had a designated helmsman.
its about 7 miles or so each way. tach stood about 650 RPM the whole time.
but most the 4 stroke issues I see come from over propping for the load and cruise RPM and not enough time in the operating range.
I have one with a pair of F225's that is so overloaded it aint funny, how the engines dont explode is beyond me. if you run anything less than 4200 it will fall off plane. if you slap a 3 ft swell at 4200 it will fall off plane. the guy normally cruises at 5400 and complains it uses 2 qts of oil every 100 hours. last I looked they had about 1100 hours on them.
boat is a 36 grady with a flying bridge,fly bridge curtains,bow thruster and about every option grady offered and a few they dont.
twin AC,6500Kw genset. coffe maker,ice maker, stove shower and refridgerator.
then wonders why 2 outboards struggle so hard.
and his out riggers are at least 25' long.