Compression testing, hot or cold?

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skydad

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Re: Compression testing, hot or cold?

The compression test we do on airplanes is called a Differential Compression Test, where "X" number of lbs. of air pressure(usually 80 psi) is pumped into the cylinder with the piston at approximately TDC and it is compared to the air pressure the cylinder is holding. Usually you want to see a cylinder hold at least 75% of the psi put in. Any less than that and you have problems. The tool is a relatively inexpensive tool that has two gauges, one for pressure in and one for pressure held. More so than how much pressure the cylinder holds, the more important thing is that all the cylinders be relatively close in compression. The cylinder compressions are usually logged as being 70 over 80 or 76 over 80 with 80 being the pressure in and the other number being the amount held. This is a very good way to detect valve or ring problems. I always do airplane cylinder compression checks with the engine cold. A hot engine's pistons & rings usually expand more than the cylinder itself causing higher readings. I would do the compression check on an outboard cold also.
 

ob

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Re: Compression testing, hot or cold?

Vinney's original question about leakdown tests was removed.I suppose one of the moderators saw a dispute in the making.
 

vinney

Chief Petty Officer
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Oct 29, 2002
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Re: Compression testing, hot or cold?

Get to the bottom line. Compression doesnt change 30 psi from hot to cold. That is wrong. To say a cold engine compression test is worthless is wrong. People are looking for help not theorys out of books. If you havent done it in the real world sit back and see how people do this every day for a living. To write page after page on stuff that is untrue is misleading to someone who needs help.
 

Forktail

Ensign
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Re: Compression testing, hot or cold?

Thanks ob. I wondered what was going on with this guy.
 

Forktail

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Re: Compression testing, hot or cold?

Good post skydad. I can tell you're a technical mechanic. :) You're right, a leak down test is a slang term for cylinder differential test. Same thing, but different from a static compression test.<br /><br />Some things folks here might find interesting....<br /><br />Leak down tests for 2-stroke outboards and 4-stroke outboards are performed different using different tools for each. <br /><br />2-stroke leak down tests are done at lower pressures, say 10 psi max, where 4-stroke leak down tests are higher, say 100 psi max. You don't want to blow out seals and gaskets so check the book for what the manufacture of the engine suggests. Thus the 4-stroke tools require compressed air, while the 2-stroke tools can be as simple as a homemade blood pressure pump bulb (that's the type I use).<br /><br />In doing a 2-stroke leak down test, you need to seal off the intake and exhaust. You will be pressurizing the engine crankcase and don't want air leaking out the exhaust or the carb. They make rubber plugs for this, but I use pieces of innertube rubber between the exhaust manifold plate and the engine, and a tapered rubber bung with a fitting (for the bulb hose) that I stuff and clamp in the carb boot. If there is no carb boot sometimes I make a flat plate with a gasket that bolts up. The 4-stroke doesn't require blocking these openings off, because they have their own exhaust and intake valves. You just have to time the engine (TDC) so that these valves are closed prior to pressurizing.<br /><br />For a 2-stroke I like to pump my bulb up to 8-10 psi. A tight motor should hold this pressure for about 10 minutes. If the pressure starts to drop I spray a soapy solution of water all around the motor to find a leak. Sometimes it's the pto or mag seal or the head or base gasket. As skydad posted, with the 4-stroke you're looking for a comparison in the pressure going into the cylinder vs. what the cylinder is holding. This is why the 4-stroke tool requires two gauges and the 2-stroke tool only one. On a 4-stroke you can actually hear air leakage out the exhaust pipe, out the intake, or out the oil filler. Hearing air out the exhaust means a bad exhaust valve. Air out the intake means a bad intake valve. Hearing air out the oil filler means you're losing compression through the rings. Bubbles in the coolant means possible cracked cylinder or block.<br /><br />Oh, yea....I always to a warm compression check first, before the leak down test. Kinda fun stuff to do. <br /><br />Skydad, Lycoming aircraft requires the cylinder differential test to be done with a hot engine. "Operate engine until normal cylinder temperature and oil temperature is obtained. Proceed with test as soon as possible." But I'm not sure what you're working on.<br /><br />I think their theory (and mine) is that things do expand when hot, and in a good engine compression should rise significantly under hotter conditions. But a cracked piston, broken ring, or cracked cylinder wall will not expand as readily (because of the fracture). Thus the compression will not come up proportionately to the other good cylinder when warmed. Cold, they may all look good. But heated, things happen. I almost think of it in opposite....what isn't expanding and sealing, and why isnt' the compression rising?<br /><br /> :D
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
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Jan 24, 2002
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Re: Compression testing, hot or cold?

I think too many people are getting confused with this thread.<br /><br />A leakdown test is not infallable and sometimes a compression test is more accurate in telling if there are internal problems. For example, a compression test on a particular cylinder shows it is about 15# lower than the rest. This is the bottom limit for different cylinders. A leakdown test done at 100 psi (see correct leakdown test description later in this post) shows less than 3% leakage (100-97=3), yet the motor has an idling problem. Eventually we pulled the cylinder head and found the retaining pin for the SECOND ring worked loose and grooved the cylinder wall. As the piston came up toward top dead center past the groove, the top ring sealed the cylinder correctly.<br /><br />Aircraft mechanics use the leakdown test to check for combustion chamber sealing. They remove a plug and screw in an adapter connected to 2 pressure gauges that have a calibrated orifice between them. The piston is brought up to top dead center and held in place with the prop. 80 psi input is adjusted to the first gauge and the leakage amount is read on the second one. If it was completely airtight and no leakage, both gauges would read 80psi. Normally there is a bit of leakage thru the ring gaps, etc. so a healthy motor would read 75# or greater. <br /><br />A leakdown test only checks the combustion chamber, not the crank seals or anything else. On outboards it is easier to set the inlet gauge to 100, then the reading of the second gauge is the % of sealing, such as 96%. You want to see less than 10% leakage. On a 4 stroke that has excessive leakage, you can listen for valve leakage by the air flowing thru the exhaust or the intake manifold. For ring leakage, listen thru the oil fill hole.<br /><br />Warm compression tests are not as accurate as they are thought to be. A piston is only "round" and full size while the motor is running and the top of the piston "sees" 800 to 1300 degrees of combustion temperature. As soon as the motor is turned off, the piston cools down very quickly and changes shape. Warm to the touch is not much different than room temperature, according to the piston. By the time a motor is ready for a compression test, the plugs are removed (also letting cool air on the top of the piston), and the gauge installed and the motor cranked over, the temp is nowhere near running condition.<br /><br />On 2 stroke motors you do not have to open the throttle plate for a compression test. The exhaust port is open to the air and the compression does not start until the rings seal off the port. Try it both ways, you will not see a different reading. 4strokes are a different story and because of the intake valve, the throttle has to be close to wide open. On a Yamaha F225, there is about 30 psi difference between open and closed throttle.<br /><br />I hope this explains things better for everyone.
 

JB

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Re: Compression testing, hot or cold?

We are at the point of quibbling over minor points. I agree with Seahorese that we are confusing more than we are settling.<br /><br />A cold compression test is not useless if it is the only alternative.<br /><br />Leakdown tests are for fine-tuning a diagnosis.<br /><br />To disagree without being disagreeable is an art not mastered by everyone.
 

BarG

Cadet
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Jan 4, 2013
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8
I would like to be educated on how to do a leak down test. I have just acquired an '86 Merc 45hp that runs great but the other day just for info, I ran a compression check on it. (I know should have run a check beforehand)I removed all the plugs etc, did not squirt oil into it, turned it over with the starter an equal amount of time on all 4 cylinders and got a shock as all cylinders read 60 to 62! The motor runs too good to have 50% less compression! What am I doing wrong? Is my compression checker checked out or is it indeed possible an old 2 stroke 4 cylinder Merc able to run like it does given these numbers.
 

racerone

Supreme Mariner
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Dec 28, 2013
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36,368
You have a bad gauge or a motor that needs an overhaul.------You can do what you like , but I would remove bypass covers ( transfer covers ) and have a look at the pistons / rings.-----And before you ask there is no head gasket on that motor.
 

tpenfield

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Best to start a new thread as this one is over 20 years old.

Closed.
 
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