cleaning engine internals

s1jor

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Mar 13, 2004
Messages
112
i have heard of people using products like sea foam or something to clean the internals of there engine seam to remember hearing someone saying they put some water through the carb to kinda steam clean it, first off, is this necessary??? and how do you go about using the sea foam and the water thing??? have volvo 4.3 if that makes any difference<br /><br />thanks<br /><br />simon
 

tommays

Admiral
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
6,768
Re: cleaning engine internals

S<br />seafoam seams to work for some people if you do a search there are some long posts about different ways to use it<br /><br />please dont use water thats just real bad advice<br /><br /><br />tommays
 

deputydawg

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 29, 2004
Messages
1,607
Re: cleaning engine internals

A properly tuned engine should not need cleaned internaly. Regular oil changes should do it. What sea foam does that may help an older engine is clean out the rings to help oil consumption. AN older engine might get buildup in under the rings not allowing the rings to expand. Also around the valve guides and seals might build up. <br />If the engine is carrying good oil pressure and not burning oil, I would suggest leaving it alone. <br />If you do use a cleaner, use sea foam or equivilent. A little deisel fuel in the oil will do as much good. Remove about 2 quarts of oil, replace with deisel and run for about 5 minutes. Then drain the oil and let it drip for an hour or so.<br />You will aqlso find that as many products out there there are as many opinions. I have rebuilt over 100 engines and see no difference. The biggest enemy to engines I see is constant low RPM's, poorly tuned engines, not servicing regularly, and constant lugging under extreme loads. High RPM engines seem to me to be cleaner and in better shape. If an engine is serviced regularly with good oil and filters they will last a long time with no problems. (just my opinion based on my years rebuilding).<br /><br />The water idea is just plain ridiculous. Water entering the cylinders will not burn. It will sit on top of the cylinders, eventually wash down past the rings. It will not be hot enough to steam clean anything. Water and oil do not mix, so the deposits will not be washed out, even if enough water would get past the rings. you stand a much higher chance of filling a cylinder with water, causing more problems. I have found often that water in a cylinder will also cause pits in the walls. This is mostly with antifreeze or with aluminum parts.<br />I have used on competition pullers and mud racers used water injection. This is used similar to nitrous oxide. A very slight mist in the carb under heavy load, high rpms like tractor pulling or mud drags takes up space in the cylinder. Just like nitrous, it will not burn it just takes up space raising compression for a second or two to add a few ponies.<br /><br />Good luck with your decision, hope you found help here.
 

Boomyal

Supreme Mariner
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Aug 16, 2003
Messages
12,072
Re: cleaning engine internals

The 'war emergency' position on the throttles of many WWII fighters engaged a water injection system. It could clean the parts real well. It could even 'hang' them out to dry if left on too long. :p <br /><br />About the only thing that water injection will clean (real well) are the piston tops and combustion chambers. The water (vapor) blasts deposits off, it doesn't desolve anything. Witness a piston top/combustion chamber on a cylinder that has had a head gasket coolant leak. It would be sparkling clean.<br /><br />Come to think of it, why couldn't you decarb an engine by using a fine mist down the carb, using a spray bottle, when the engine is up to temp and at a moderate throttle?
 

s1jor

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Mar 13, 2004
Messages
112
Re: cleaning engine internals

thanks everyone, dont think i'll bother with the clean out. engine is running good with good pressure and is not using any oil. was just curious as to wheether this process was like an annual thing, but from your responses it obviously not so i will leave well alone<br /><br />thanks again<br /><br />simon
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
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Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: cleaning engine internals

hello<br /> the posts about water and nitrous oxide indicates someone has no clue about why an engine works or how nitrous oxide works. I suggest a trip back to the books on internal combustion engine theory and fuels theory. at least before posting erroneous information on methods that have been used on auto;s and aircraft since the late 20's.
 

katbird

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 3, 2003
Messages
118
Re: cleaning engine internals

YOU TELL THEM RODBOLT<br />I'M so mad i can't. I'm glad you spoke up.There are too many people on here giving incorrect information.
 

Scaaty

Vice Admiral
Joined
May 31, 2004
Messages
5,180
Re: cleaning engine internals

Originally posted by deputydawg:<br />[QB] A little deisel fuel in the oil will do as much good. Remove about 2 quarts of oil, replace with deisel and run for about 5 minutes. <br /><br />This is something that was done so long ago its almost insane to suggest it on new motors...<br /><br /><br /> "Just like nitrous, it will not burn it just takes up space raising compression for a second or two to add a few ponies."<br /><br />Sorry, but you are clueless as to how Nitrous works
 

Winger Ed.

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 24, 2004
Messages
649
Re: cleaning engine internals

Originally posted by Robby6950:<br />
Remove about 2 quarts of oil, replace with deisel and run for about 5 minutes.
I'd be wary of doing that.<br /><br />On some engines its OK, on others, the Diesel fuel swells all the (oil)seals on the valves and the front of the crankshaft.<br /><br />Ya won't know which type ya got unless ya can't keep oil in it a few engine hours later.....<br /><br />Years back, I'd seen a few folks do that. Invaribly, a few days later, they'd pull into a old style 'full service' gas station every hundred miles or so, and tell the kid, "Fill the oil, and check the gas".
 

Winger Ed.

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 24, 2004
Messages
649
Re: cleaning engine internals

Originally posted by s1jor:<br /> is this necessary???
Another old Indian trick was to dribble a quart of automatic trans. fluid down the carb. to knock off all the deposits that 'grew' in older engines.<br /><br />On modern engines, you shouldn't have to do any of that. <br /><br />Unleaded gas. doesn't make the deposits you used to see in years gone by, the valve stem seals, and the oil itself is better now.<br /><br />Between the modern unleaded & detergent fuels and newer detergent oils, They don't make the 'crude' that used to grow on piston domes and around valve stems and choke a engine like the old days. <br /><br />Ed.
 

Winger Ed.

Chief Petty Officer
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Mar 24, 2004
Messages
649
Re: cleaning engine internals

Originally posted by Boomyal:<br /> <br />Come to think of it, why couldn't you decarb an engine by using a fine mist down the carb, using a spray bottle, when the engine is up to temp and at a moderate throttle?
I figure,,,,, You could, and it'd work great.<br /><br />But at todays prices, hardly anybody can afford for a decent sized engine to run so rich for long enough to need it......
 

Dunaruna

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May 2, 2003
Messages
6,027
Re: cleaning engine internals

It was a common practice 30 or 40 years ago to use fine mist water injection - remember that they were the days when the perception was (rightly or wrongly) decarb fluids and foams were 'snake oils'. Did it work? I've seen a few people with good reputations (in these very forums) say that it did in fact work well.<br /><br />I'm with winger ed, modern engines and modern chemicals do the job just fine.<br /><br />Aldo
 

Boomyal

Supreme Mariner
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Aug 16, 2003
Messages
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Re: cleaning engine internals

Originally posted by Dunaruna:<br /> It was a common practice 30 or 40 years ago to use fine mist water injection - remember that they were the days when the perception was (rightly or wrongly) decarb fluids and foams were 'snake oils'. Did it work? I've seen a few people with good reputations (in these very forums) say that it did in fact work well.
I just took a bunch of heat for saying the above. In 1980 I used a vacumm controlled vapor injection sytem on my 1980 Audi Turbo. You thought you were riding in the space shuttle when that turbo kicked in. Along about '84 I had to pull the aluminum head, due to a striped spark plug thread. Everything inside looked like it came off the parts shelf.
 

imported_JD__

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Jun 13, 2003
Messages
243
Re: cleaning engine internals

I saw the internal components of a tractor engine after it was left running, unattended. The parking brake didn't hold do it drifted into a stream with the engine running. Some water got sucked into the intake before it locked up and stalled. All of the connecting rods were bent just below the wrist pin, some pistons shattered, cylinder walls gouged. Water dosn't compress.The engine was diesel and designed for much higher compression than a gas motor but runied none the less. A little off track from your question but I hope you get the picture.
 

rodbolt

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Sep 1, 2003
Messages
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Re: cleaning engine internals

JD<br /> the object is to mist the motor not sumberge it, a carb flooding can cause the same bent and broken parts as water. liquids dont compress period :) .<br />Nitrous oxide is an oxygen beaing fuel. in and of itself is non flammable. oxygen aids combustion but is not a flammable gas. nitrogen is an inert gas that really reacts with nothing. that is why with Nitrosoxide extra fuel must be injected or a super leanout and melted parts are assured.<br /> Nitrous injection has been about since the 20's the germans used a lot of it in aircraft for emergency power.<br /> back in the 60's chysler had a water injection on some large engines. an internal combustion engine works on a principle of expanding gases. water when heated expands a tremendous amount. for antiknock properties it was injected at various engine vacums(loads) and would supress knock and add power due to the expansion of the water. I have used both to increase power and supress spark. No2 if done correctly will increase combustion pressures but actually lower temps due to the fact of extra fuel and the nitrogen does not burn.<br /> its something I used to play with a lot but quit years ago. we ran methonal and nitromethane in a 427 for a long time. some we learned the hardway. but we found with careful calculations on paper and starting out on the side of caution a 671 with 2 780 and methanol with a small percentage of nitro methane can make a bit of power. there again. nitromethane is a combination of reactive and inert substances. but its an oxygen bearing fuel that is flammable. the heat rating of methanol is similar to gasoline. the octane of methanol is 100 it takes 4.5 parts of methanol to one part air for correct burn. it takes about 14 to one for gasoline. so if you think your gas milage bites, try methanol. :) :) <br />sometimes, usually when enjoying a cool beverage< I almost think about getting back into HP work. but usually by morning I am over it :) :)
 

jimmythekid

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
331
Re: cleaning engine internals

rodbolt is right Nitrous oxide does not burn, therefore IS NOT A FUEL. just like oxygen cylinders at the hospital wont blow up from you smoking a cigarette. They are oxidizers. They only help the fuel to burn more completely. Nitro Methane on the other hand is a very high grade racing fuel that burns hotter but more slowly than gasoline. Many people confuse Nitrous with Nitro, they are complete oposites. unless youve got a 3000 hp funny car your not gonna be using Nitro. However I have set up Nitrous systems on everything from lawnmowers to Harleys to School Busses.
 

jimmythekid

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
331
Re: cleaning engine internals

oh ya lots of aircraft used water injection. Started way back when they made rotary radial engines. Those where the ones where the crankshaft didnt spin, it was actally bolted to the fuselage, and the engine spun around it, at higher altitudes the air thins out,less air= less compression which in turn means you have to lean the fuel mixture which means less fuel and less power. Water injection helped by reducing combustion chamber volume whiched raised compression a bit providing more power, and helped ofset the extra heat due to the lean fuel mixture. how this applies to boats is: it doesnt and thats my point.
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
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Sep 1, 2003
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Re: cleaning engine internals

water has nothing to do with combustion chamber volume or compression. it will expand and create pressure under the correct conditions. it will also steam clean the inernal parts. and therin lies the problem. it will actually start washing the lubrication from the internal shiney parts. but like it was posted, with todays fuels and oils there is no reason for water injection now.<br /> water will not burn and will assist in lowering combustion temps to a safer level.in certain cases it can increase combustion pressures not to be confused with compression pressure. the two are totally different and not very closely related.<br /> the whole point is to remember what an articulated rod,internal combustion engine is and what its trying to do. most people have no clue of the theory behind the basic reciprocating parts and associated valve trains. even some trained techs I have run acrossed.<br /> in case your wondering its an air pump :) . thats all<br /> the whole point is about maximizing how much air you can get in and out without melting anything. the hotter the gas the more the volume of expansion. all the way up till something melts. thats the difference between a welding mix and a cutting mix.<br /> I saw to many melted engines when people tried the NO2 trick cause they failed to insure the extra fuel. not because of the NO2 itself. but common legend has it otherwise so I quit trying to assist :) :) .<br /> and yes the old Gnome rotary engines were a work of art. the mostcommon was a 5cyl version with external pushrods and rockers and the crank was fixed to the firewall and the cylinder assy rotated around. made for some odd torque and vibration characteristics:) :) <br />was an interesting study though. I wote a senior paper in english about the design,construction and use. I wish I knew where it went.<br /> got an A on it mostly cause the teacher had no clue but it looked good with plenty of footnotes :) :) .<br /> goes back to the book I mentioned <br /> Motor auto engines and electrical systems. it should be a must read for any novice.<br /> but there are many books on internal combustion engines,and fuels and fuel systems.<br /> acetone and compressed air will make a lot of power as well but its difficult to handle and the vapor pressure makes it unsuitable for common use but its been tried.
 

Buttanic

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 25, 2003
Messages
711
Re: cleaning engine internals

Rodbolt, you sure you aren't Smokey Yunick reincarnated. You sure write like him.
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: cleaning engine internals

Buttanic<br /> nope I dont think so:)<br /> but I grew up with this. my father owned a wrecking yard and raced english sports cars. he was also a machinist with the nuclear program at newport news shipbuilding. he supervised the first refueling of the USS Enterprise and wrote most of the procedures. I also grew up broke:) :) <br /> did not take long to realize that "speed cost money,how fast ya wanna go".<br /> first thing to do with any hop up procedure is to set goals for speed and RPM. then you have to factor in weight, then fuel type then you can start ploting gear ratios and such. I was lucky that my father was also an engineer and some of the car clubs around the DFW area had some as well. gave me access to all kinds of formulas. I could not afford to randomly buy stuff to go fast. I learned early that make it work on paper and it will be very close in reality. most times :) :) .<br /> but in any endeavor always remember the basics. the more high tech the engine controls the more important the basics become. the high tech rarely fails but it can compensate for low tech failures somewhat.<br /> but I have read a lot of smokeys writings along with duntov's, shellbys and a host of others. machines have always fascinated me. so I do the boat thing now cause its about the last place where you can run an engine for hours at its rated horsepower without getting a ticket :) .<br /> goes back to my bible<br /> motors auto engines and electrical. the laws of physics dictates how it all works. just the control signals change.<br />just like gears is gears. dont care if its in a watch, a clock, a differential, a lower or upper unit or anything else. gears is gears and they all have physical limitations and operating specifications.
 
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