Catastrophic failure? Should I cut my losses???Please help!

hismajst

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
May 22, 2010
Messages
35
Last weekend I posted a query and pictures about what would cause an impeller to fail on a 1990 120HP L Drive Force motor and loose water flow after only being 2 days old. The background on the time of failure was that the engine was running fine as I was skipping across the lake when I lost all water flow. I shut down the engine and the first thing I did was remove the thermostat and inspect the head for water, the water jacket was dry as a bone. I then got towed into the docks. Well my nightmare has come to fruition and it wasn?t the impeller:(. I removed the spark plugs last night and started barring the engine over by hand. To my surprise half a gallon of water pumped out of cylinders 3 and 4 (but mostly #4)!!! I removed the head and found a couple dozen dings in cylinder # 4, but the spark plug showed no signs of damage and there was no debris in the cylinder(previous failure??). The head gasket also looked brand new. On TOP of that I went to drain the lower unit and change the gear oil when about a half gallon of water came out of it. AT this point I am in real need of some good advise. I cannot help but notice parts are getting more and more scarce for the Force engines and L drive units. This is my first boat and first experience with outboards. I would conclude that the powerhead and lower unit need replaced. That?s $4,000 or so in hard earned cash. The hull is in EXCELLENT shape but I fear the powerplant and drive are a total loss. Would you cut your losses or go for the new engine and lower unit? Are all boats like this, i.e. cheaply built fun toys that are designed to only last a couple years before they become obsolete and you have to sink another 20 grand into another piece of junk?? Who would you suggest getting a new powerhead and lower unit from?? Is the Force L drive even worth it, or should I get a new boat with a sterndrive,merc inboard etc????? What would be a good long lasting boat setup?? I?m just not sure what to do and am discouraged that this boat has turned into such a nightmare. I appreciate any advise.
 

bashr52

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Aug 2, 2009
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413
Re: Catastrophic failure? Should I cut my losses???Please help!

Can you determine where the water entered the engine from? Bad head gasket, cracked water jacket? What was the compression on the cylinders before this happened? It may be saveable if you are able to save some $$ and do the work yourself to fix it. These engines are simple to work on, once you learn the basics of how they work.
 

jasonbailey

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Jul 25, 2004
Messages
253
Re: Catastrophic failure? Should I cut my losses???Please help!

Everything I've read about the L drive is to run away from them as fast as possible. Parts are hard to come by for them. If you need to rebuild the engine and lower unit, you maybe better served by looking for a new rig.
 

hismajst

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May 22, 2010
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Re: Catastrophic failure? Should I cut my losses???Please help!

I will dig harder into it this weekend and get some pics. I realy don't think it's the head gasket. It seemed like everytime I barred it over with the head off more water would come from somewhere behind the piston. Off the subject what is the best setup/servicable/user friendly setup for todays boats? Stern drive/merc drive/Jet drive.. etc??
 

roscoe

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Oct 30, 2002
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Re: Catastrophic failure? Should I cut my losses???Please help!

Would you cut your losses or go for the new engine and lower unit?


Cut and run. Part out and sell on ebay.



Are all boats like this, i.e. cheaply built fun toys that a....


No, you just got lucky and bought the worst powerplant setup there ever was.

Is the Force L drive even worth it, or should I get a new boat with a sterndrive,merc inboard etc?????



First off, the L-drive is not an outboard, so don't exclude outboards.

Sterdrives, i/o's, also have issues, mostly maintenance is a little more involved.

What would be a good long lasting boat setup??



Just about any Johnson, Evinrude, Yamaha, Honda, or Mercury outboard from 1990 on. With the exception of an Evinrude Ficht injected motor.


I?m just not sure what to do and am discouraged that this boat has turned into such a nightmare. I appreciate any advise.



Whatever you decide to go with, have it checked out thoroughly before you buy.
 

foodfisher

Captain
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Feb 18, 2009
Messages
3,756
Re: Catastrophic failure? Should I cut my losses???Please help!

A lot of people are looking for parts from those things. May recoup some loses that way.
 

RRitt

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Mar 30, 2006
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3,319
Re: Catastrophic failure? Should I cut my losses???Please help!

I will dig harder into it this weekend and get some pics. I realy don't think it's the head gasket. It seemed like everytime I barred it over with the head off more water would come from somewhere behind the piston. Off the subject what is the best setup/servicable/user friendly setup for todays boats? Stern drive/merc drive etc??

I think my next engine is going to be a 5hp briggs. I'll never even check the oil ... just run it until it dies. Then throw it away and buy another. I tired of big boats and want a 14' jon now. Everytime I go out fishing now all I see is the hundreds of fishing holes that big boats can't reach. So ... the best motor depends on the owner.
 

hismajst

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May 22, 2010
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Re: Catastrophic failure? Should I cut my losses???Please help!

"RRITT" ha ha haaa. I needed that! I believe you are spot on!!
 

ezmobee

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Mar 26, 2007
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23,767
Re: Catastrophic failure? Should I cut my losses???Please help!

I think I'd be hesistant to dump much money at all into an L-drive.

Off the subject what is the best setup/servicable/user friendly setup for todays boats? Stern drive/merc drive/Jet drive.. etc??

The good news is it would be difficult to do worse than you already have :eek::p

Any outboard other than Chrysler/Force is fine. Any Merc or Volvo stern drive (except the Merc 470) would be just fine.
 

Bill is ok

Cadet
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May 27, 2010
Messages
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Re: Catastrophic failure? Should I cut my losses???Please help!

I think I'd be hesistant to dump much money at all into an L-drive.



The good news is it would be difficult to do worse than you already have :eek::p

Any outboard other than Chrysler/Force and any Merc or Volvo stern drive (except the Merc 470) would be just fine.

Why don't you like Merc or Volvo?
I always thought they were good motors and drives????
Bill
 

ezimmerm

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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May 31, 2009
Messages
94
Re: Catastrophic failure? Should I cut my losses???Please help!

check your exhaust manifold gaskets, i have a force 150 and thats where water was getting in from on mine.
 

hismajst

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May 22, 2010
Messages
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Re: Catastrophic failure? Should I cut my losses???Please help!

"ezimmerm", thank you for your reply. Would it also make sense that at the time of failure the water in the water jacket just went away if the exhaust manifold gasket blew out?? I'm at a loss and all you guys out there can understand this-----my wife was on the boat at the time of failure and kindly asks me on a daily basis if "the boat is gonna run soon?". I am a mine technician that works very hard for his money, and for the first time in my life realy felt like I was living the good life=when the boat was running. I just want to have that feeling again without selling my future for it. I have thought it over all day and the only thing within my means is to repair it. Is the Force L Drive that cursed?? Can it be a good motor if you take good care of her? If I post some pictures of the cylinders and head could you guys give me some ideas?? Any pointers are GREATLY apreciated!!!!
 

ezimmerm

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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May 31, 2009
Messages
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Re: Catastrophic failure? Should I cut my losses???Please help!

Sounds like you may have a couple of different things going on here.

1. The lower unit is going to need a new seals kit if you have water in the oil. No way around that. If you don't want to spend much at the very least replace the gaskets around the oil fill/drain/air holes and see if that fixes it.

2. I found your other post and the impeller still looks alright, its going to curl a bit as it spins in the housing.

3. The main reason water is in mostly cylinder 4 is that gravity is going to pull the water to the bottom of the powerhead who know's where its leaking.


its possible also that if your impeller was extremely old that a piece of it has come off and lodged somewhere blocking water flow though that doesnt seem likely since you had lots of water in the power head (unless thats been leaking for a while). The water jacket is also likely to be dry (just a wild guess here) since the powerhead is hot and was running (and sounds like it had been running for a while) when water stopped flowing.

Word of warning I'm just a shade tree mechanic here, I'd wait for some of the more experienced voices to weigh in on this. I'd also recommend picking up a Clymer manual if you intend on fixing this yourself as that will be invaluable when the motors apart.


2 question for you.

1. Was there any white smoke coming out of the engine while running it?
2. Is it possible the "key" in the impeller came loose or got knocked out causing it to not spin?
3. Were you running in shallow water at all, it's possible something got sucked in and is blocking water flow.
 

RRitt

Captain
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Mar 30, 2006
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3,319
Re: Catastrophic failure? Should I cut my losses???Please help!

Why don't you like Merc or Volvo?
I always thought they were good motors and drives????
Bill

they have a terrible reputation around here. something about the way they bring water across the manifold ends up costing many thousands of dollars to fix.

Personally I wouldn't own a Merc because of their engineering. Time and again Mercury engineers have displayed a lack of fundamental understanding and have overcompensated with unnecessarily complex solutions. For example, they don't really understand the metal grades and torques well enough to say which bolt is exactly matched to the application .... so they simply install four oversize ones. Mercury is very good at marketing and building dealer networks. Not so much at engineering.

and, you know, I wasn't joking about the briggs. The water here is 5 miles wide and 5" deep. I want a push pole boat.
 

roscoe

Supreme Mariner
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Oct 30, 2002
Messages
21,715
Re: Catastrophic failure? Should I cut my losses???Please help!

RRitt, you need a Beavertail.
It'l run you thru 6" of water.
Unfortunately, they aren't using Briggs motors any more. They have switched to Honda and Kohler.



VanguardName.jpg





11083259_1.jpg





13.jpg


They also have a new "surface drive unit. 40 hp Koehler with power tilt.


Sufacedrive.jpg


http://www.explorebeavertail.com/honda13motor.html
 

RRitt

Captain
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Mar 30, 2006
Messages
3,319
Re: Catastrophic failure? Should I cut my losses???Please help!

I'm digging that engine. just checked and they even have one under 100lbs. Put a HDPE prop on that thing and point me towards the nearest oyster bed. I have but one boating/fishing thing that I MUST do before I die. I want to hook a 100+ pound tarpon in a kayak and go for a Pine Island sleighride. In the meantime that thing looks like a hoot.
 

roscoe

Supreme Mariner
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Oct 30, 2002
Messages
21,715
Re: Catastrophic failure? Should I cut my losses???Please help!

THey are mostly used by duck hunters up here.
Muddy marshes, low water, weeds, below freezing temps, PERFECT !



Your FL dealer
Parkway Marine 4053 Apalachee Pkwy. Tallahassee FL 32311
850-508-1686
 

hismajst

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
May 22, 2010
Messages
35
Re: Catastrophic failure? Should I cut my losses???Please help!

"EZIMMERM", to answer your questions and maybe give you some ideas to go on.
No, there was NO white smoke and cylinder temps never got over 210 degrees F..
I confirmed that the key had not come loose and the impeller was only 2 days old.
I was not in shallow water and I also confirmed that nothing had got stuck in the suction side of the lower unit.
I had already sealed the lower unit and installed another new impeller and housing after the failure and prior to finding the water in cylinder 4. Before I installed the lower unit I decided the remove the transfer hose from the lower unit to the U Joint housing and plugged a garden hose feeding the power unit to check for restrictions. It felt like it took a bit of pressure to get er flowing but it started coming out of the exhaust like it should. Then I installed the lower housing and put it in my water trough (water level was to the bottom of the U joint housing) to test my repair. WHen I attempted to start it it would not bar over. I checked my batteries and knew at that moment I had a compression issue. I removed the spark plugs and a little water came out of #4 cyl. I inspected all spark plugs and didn't find anything unusual. Then I barred the engine over with a ratchet and 1 1/16 socket. Thats when the water came GUSHING out of #4 (more-so then when I just removed the spark plug). I then removed the head to inspect. I found several dings in the head on cyl. #4 but no traces of debris. Crosshatching was good on all cylinders. AT that point I just figured the water jacket was cracked and I should start looking for a new powerhead. Am I correct in assuming that water enters the exhaust manifold LAST?? If it entered the exhaust first and then the head, I would suspect an exhaust gasket. I kinda wish I had not pressured up the system cause I am positive the water in the cylinder was from my plugging the garden hose in to it (the U joint housing hose) I realy need to get some pics for you guys..
Thanks again for all your help.
 

Frank Acampora

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Jan 19, 2007
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12,004
Re: Catastrophic failure? Should I cut my losses???Please help!

On any Force engine block, the water enters the exhaust water chambers FIRST! It enters at the "dogleg"--see below. This is because the exhaust chamber walls and cover must be kept cool. Then, the water circulates around the cylinders, and when temperature gets hot enough the thermostat opens and the head is cooled.

Look at the inner exhaust cover gasket at the "dogleg" --the bump in at the bottom front. The gasket is thinnest here and if improperly installed can kink. It can also rupture. Either condition will squirt water into #4 cylinder exhaust ports
 
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