Blown cylinders due to ethanol? Johnson 200)

[musella]

I bought a 1996 wellcraft 23 excell with a 1996 johnson 200 at the end of last season. It was rebuilt in 2003.<br /> A mechanic checked the engine - said it was good - and I test drove it for about an hour - and it was running perfectly. I then let the mechanic winterize and store the boat/engine on land..<br /> A few days ago, they put it in the water, tuned it up, and took it out for a test drive. (I wasn't there). The mechanic said it ran fine for a few minutes, then he heard a pop and the engine lost power.<br /> He said the engine is beyond repair. The cylinders are "blown" they looked burned.<br /> He said he was talking to friends about it, and they also heard of similiar things happening with other engines recently. <br /> They are thinking it may have something to do with the ethanol in the gas (the gas tank was stored filled and stabilizer was added when it was winterized) seperating out and the engine running on the ethanol alone burned too hot.<br /> Doesn't sound right to me.. anyone hear of this type of problem?

 

[Scaaty]

Re: Blown cylinders due to ethanol? Johnson 200)

Ha! (Welcome to Iboats first off, but lets cut to the chase) They winterized it, and then took it out and blew it up, and they blame the GAS? Tell them they owe you a motor rebuild. You had nothing to do with this. Be nice first, as getting mad gets you nowhere. More people here will respond too with advice, so keep checking back. If they balk at this rebuild, its small claims court after contacting a lawyer. You need all correspondence, records, the whats, whens, and wheres...write it all down...get a log book and find and keep all reciepts..contact the previous owner for any info. Gas stored with stabil and whatever its formulated with will not separate and blow a motor. At least not that I know of...

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Blown cylinders due to ethanol? Johnson 200)

hello<br /> there are many causes of piston failure. and if the gas was already old in the tank stabil is a waste of money. a careful inspection of the oiston will usually tell why it failed. winterizeing is not a warrenty that the fuel was ok before it was stored. also was the oil tank cleaned and the oil system checked at witerization and dewiterization. see a lot of oil tanks with sludge and water in them and the filters never get checked. I have even seen engines fail,get rebuilt and fail again due to water in the oil tank. it happens.

 

[JB]

Re: Blown cylinders due to ethanol? Johnson 200)

Yup. What Robby said.

 

[fireman57]

Re: Blown cylinders due to ethanol? Johnson 200)

rodbolt if the dealer winterized and de-winterized it shouldn't they have cleaned and inspected the oil tank as part of this service?

 

[Dhadley]

Re: Blown cylinders due to ethanol? Johnson 200)

Actually we see that a lot here too. Same scenario. Boat/motor put away, stored, pops on first run out. As Rodbolt says it generally comes down to a few things. The main one being the gas (not necessairly alchol but it will lose octane also), second is water in the oil tank. Seen it a lot over the years. Powerhead sales are always brisk in the spring up north and brisk in the south when the snowbirds return for the winter.<br /><br />Like he said, look at the piston(s). Thats the clue as to what caused the problem. In any case I would not use that fuel again.

 

[musella]

Re: Blown cylinders due to ethanol? Johnson 200)

1. There is 80 gallons of gas - where do you get rid of that much bad gas?<br />2. I am not into suing.. I look at it as an accident.. he is willing to give me $1000 as a trade in to be used toward a rebuilt engine or a new suzzuki 200 (he doesn't sell johnson anymore).I am thinking of asking him to give me the new suzuki at his cost ( - the $1000 trade in). Anyone know what the normal markup is on a new engine? Would that be fair?<br /> By the way - he was the only one who serviced this engine since it was new and he rebuilt it ($3500) a year and a half ago.

 

[Dhadley]

Re: Blown cylinders due to ethanol? Johnson 200)

Why did he rebuild it then?

 

[Dhadley]

Re: Blown cylinders due to ethanol? Johnson 200)

If the piston(s) are hurt from whatever -- bad fuel, lack of cooling, water in fuel/oil, plugged jets -- the block should be boreable. If the crank is still good (likely) then I would suggest rebuilding what you have. Easier than re-rigging the whole boat.

 

[rabidfish]

Re: Blown cylinders due to ethanol? Johnson 200)

Seems to me to be early in determining what actually did go wrong... <br /><br />Remember, there is no such thing as "blown up"! Something went wrong and obviously caused this damage. What needs to be determined is (What went wrong) then you can determine fault(if any)<br /><br />Once you determine fault, then you can say what is fair and what isn't. any determination before that is premature.

 

[Scaaty]

Re: Blown cylinders due to ethanol? Johnson 200)

This is the reason I do my own work, on my own boats, and if a problem, my own problem. <br />DHadley.. <br />"Actually we see that a lot here too. Same scenario. Boat/motor put away, stored, pops on first run out. As Rodbolt says it generally comes down to a few things. The main one being the gas (not necessairly alchol but it will lose octane also), second is water in the oil tank. <br /><br /> Not to belittle any mechanic or boat yard owner, but if this is a known problem, why is the oil tank not cleaned out, or the gas ran through a separate pump and drag the bottom few crummy gallons out, dump some octane booster in, or do something. I gonna blame both parties........and call the EPA if you have bad gas to get rid of (which by the way was not mentioned in the original post...question was ethanol separation).

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Blown cylinders due to ethanol? Johnson 200)

Robby, could you elaborate just a tad on your above post???? I must ask, what are you saying??

 

[musella]

Re: Blown cylinders due to ethanol? Johnson 200)

Is there any way to tell if the gas is bad? Hate to lose 80 gallons, but don't want to mess up a new engine.<br /> The problem with rebuilding it is that this would be the second time.. last one "lasted" 2 seasons. Hate to throw good money after bad. At $3500 it is a big gamble - comes with a 90 day warranty. Evinrude has a special now where they offer a 7 year warrenty. I am checking prices now. Looks like I am going for the new engine. I will feel more confident in a new one anyway. Bad vibes from the old one<br /> From the responses, it appears that this is just something that happens.. nobody is at fault.<br /> Thanks everyone.

 

[RRRKKK]

Re: Blown cylinders due to ethanol? Johnson 200)

Something smells here and its not old gasoline!!!!!

 

[Basscat 1]

Re: Blown cylinders due to ethanol? Johnson 200)

Originally posted by musella:<br />By the way - he was the only one who serviced this engine since it was new and he rebuilt it ($3500) a year and a half ago. [/QB]

Let me get this straight.<br />Your motor is only a 96 model and it was rebuilt in 2003 for $3500.00, and now the engine is blown again? Can I ask what you do with your boat, recreational or work or both? It seems to me it should have lasted alot longer especially if it was rebuilt in 2003.

 

[fireman57]

Re: Blown cylinders due to ethanol? Johnson 200)

I know that some of you guys are dealers and very reputable ones at that. I also understand that sometimes poo happens. I agree that there is some problem somewhere but I don't think that it is bad gas. Something evidently was not right from the start and was possibly overlooked in the rebuild. I too am curious Basscat 1 in what kind of use this boat is getting. Right now it seems that something is going on that the experts haven't figured out but I don't see it being bad gas. I still feel that the oil tank, lines, filters and whatever else should be checke ought to be part of the winterizing and de-winterizing process. If the dealer was supposed to perform this service and it was not done then I feel that he should be responsible. Now don't get mad I said, "If he was supposed to do this and didn't" then he should be held responsible or a mutual agreement can be worked out without lawyers or the daggone EPA.

 

[musella]

Re: Blown cylinders due to ethanol? Johnson 200)

I know the guy who owned it (I just bought it).. he used it recreationally.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Blown cylinders due to ethanol? Johnson 200)

hello<br /> the problem with water in the oil tank is one none of my customers suffer. as long as they bring it to me for the 100 hour OR 6 month service and the 200 hour OR annual. a lot of boats I only see after they are broke. most have do it yourself maint cause their wifes ex brother in law had a cousin who worked on tractors for elmer fudd farms when he was a kid and is a mechanic. in the dry stack right now I can show you 10 boats that dont burn 40 gallons of gas a year. they hold over 200. gas does not live forever. someday we will have sealed tanks like automobiles and some of the fuel problem will go away. in an EFI or carbed,not DFI, motor everything that passes the injectors or venturies must lubricate the reciprocating assy. old fuel has most of the volitale vapors already gone due to atmospheric venting of 99% of all hull tanks. even stabil says that if treated the day it was refined stabilized fuel is only good for about 6 months. if you remove the pistons and see a build up of shiney black laquer on the skirts its a fuel failure. sometimes it will even leave gummy residue on the sleeves. other times the solids clog jets. there again if it gets air past the throttle shutters and not enough fuel from the main well or injectors its toast.oil failures, especially water in the oilwill rust the crank and rods. its easy to find on teardown. I toss fuel all the time. I had to dispose of 90 gallons last november due to a bad vent that allowed water in the tank. instead of the customer brining it to a proffesional he got elmerr fudds tractor mechanic and a couple bottles of snake oil and I had to toss the gas. cost 75 dollars for the truck charge and 3 dollars a gallon disposal fee.<br /> I have a grady now that I suspect will blow this summer and there is nothing I can do. its a 98 model with a sx225 and a ft9.9 kicker. the main motor has 31 hours on it. its used one weekend a year. the fuel is bright yellow now. it had 35 gallons used all last year from a 260 gallon tank.but the mans friend swears that treated fuel never goes bad. and the motor has never seen ANY service other than winterizing and the kicker carb beining rebuilt each spring due to gum. I have one commercial crabber running one of my rebuilds now that last spring had fuel reciepts for over 13,000 gallons of gasoline. it may actually become the second outboard I have seen wear out in 30 years of working with them.<br /> but yes virginia, gas goes bad and some of the reformulateds will do it in a vented tank in 30 days. especially when it was MTBE. that stuff was a motor killer.

 

[Scaaty]

Re: Blown cylinders due to ethanol? Johnson 200)

Originally posted by walleyehed:<br /> Robby, could you elaborate just a tad on your above post???? I must ask, what are you saying??

Clean the oil tank out and suck out a few gallons of the crap gas that was sitting from storage by running a pump inline before the boats fuel pump? THEN fill it up with as much fresh gas as possible? <br />Or really just be nice if people would run the darn boat until the gas is almost gone, dump in a quart of stabil to 80 gallons on gas, but I give up. This crap we get for gas is just getting worse I guess......<br />Ps. Am I the ONLY one who tapes his vents over?

 

[rabidfish]

Re: Blown cylinders due to ethanol? Johnson 200)

I dont drain and refill oil tanks as part of a "winterization". <br />Who the heck mounts an oil tank out in the rain? Seems to be asking for trouble.<br /><br />I'll also say this to go with Rodbolt's statements... <br />Don't be so quick to blame the dealer/mechanic that did the work. If you dont know why it failed, then how can you say it's his fault???