Block cracked after Winterization - how can this happen?

[Neilbcox]

First...thanks for any advice or comments you have. I am doing this for me and not a friend. LOL.

Now, I used my boat for approx. 25 hours last year and never had an oil pressure or overheating problem. I have a 23" Bayliner with a Mercruiser inboard.outboard.

Ask my marina to winterize the boat in November 2010...I live in the SE US.

Called a couple of months ago and asked the marina to summerize the boat now before I needed it...sometime it takes weeks to have it summerized.

Called Marina on July 2 and asked them to get my boat our for us to take out on a pleasure ride. They called me back and said that the block was cracked. They said that when they took the dipstick out that it has rust on it. They want to replace the engine for $5k to $6k. Am I being scammed?

The marina seems to believe that the block was already cracked from the prior year which I kept it at another marina. They think that the other marina did not put oil in the engine. If that was the case would the engine not overheat or the oil pressure gauge not be at zero?

How can a block bust over winter on a boat that has been winterized? How could there be no oil in the motor without the well being full of oil?

Any advice on what to do or how to prove that they did not winterize my boat and therefore it had regular water and therefore it cracked the block when it froze?

Thanks

 

[Bt Doctur]

Re: Block cracked after Winterization - how can this happen?

somebody didnt winterize it correctly.

 

[adeneo]

Re: Block cracked after Winterization - how can this happen?

Called Marina on July 2 and asked them to get my boat our for us to take out on a pleasure ride. They called me back and said that the block was cracked. They said that when they took the dipstick out that it has rust on it. They want to replace the engine for $5k to $6k. Am I being scammed?

Probably!

How can a block bust over winter on a boat that has been winterized? How could there be no oil in the motor without the well being full of oil?

If it froze, it was'nt winterized properly, or at all?
Where does oil go to die? Who knows, but one would think they checked the oil when winterizing the engine, so consumption is probably not the answer, or maybe they did'nt check the oil, or maybe they're scamming you, who knows?

Any advice on what to do or how to prove that they did not winterize my boat and therefore it had regular water and therefore it cracked the block when it froze?

If the engine froze and cracked, chances are it was'nt properly winterized. Should be proof enough, and if this marina was at all serious they would have taken full responsibility. Not doing so shows that they are most likely the wrong people to have service your boat and it's engine, if of course everything is as you say, and there was no damage before the marina got the boat. They should still however have noticed if there was any damage and notified you back then, so it's much more likely that they are in fact every bit as incompetent as it sounds.

I would start by confronting them with the fact that they where responsible for your engine NOT freezing the minute they charged you for winterizing, and that any damage arising from not doing so properly (or at all) should be repaired free of charge by the people responsible, in this case the marina.

 

[Neilbcox]

Re: Block cracked after Winterization - how can this happen?

Thanks...am i wrong thinking that if the block had been cracked from the prior year as the marina thinks that i would have had major engine problems last year during the 8 or 9 times i took the boat out?

 

[Scorpion8]

Re: Block cracked after Winterization - how can this happen?

Yes, you would have. This is why nobody touches my engine (car or boat) without some oversight (by me!) Have the boat taken somewhere else for a second opinion (mechanic of your choice) and make sure you document your block serial number before (and after) to really make sure any work was actually done.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Block cracked after Winterization - how can this happen?

Thanks...am i wrong thinking that if the block had been cracked from the prior year as the marina thinks that i would have had major engine problems last year during the 8 or 9 times i took the boat out?

Nope, yer absolutely Right,...
You'd have been lookin' at this same issue, Last Summer....

Probably time to lawyer up....

 

[Saqbcq]

Re: Block cracked after Winterization - how can this happen?

So your marina is stating that you put 25 hours on your boat with no oil? 10 minutes tops then its seized which doesn't explain the cracked block. If there was no oil in it or water in the oil why didn't they tell you when they winterized it? They might have winterized it but, it sounds like they forgot the oil and are blaming your old marina to try to protect themselves. Also, condensation could explain rust on the dipstick.

 

[BRG25]

Re: Block cracked after Winterization - how can this happen?

If I had a marina tell me this fairy tail, I would be insulted. My first question would be for them to provide in detail what their "winterization" process is.

I don't know which engine you have but this is directly from the Service Manual for my 4.3.

IMPORTANT: Mercury MerCruiser strongly recommends that this service be performed
by an Authorized Mercury MerCruiser Dealer. Damage caused by freezing IS
NOT covered by the MerCruiser Limited Warranty.

1. Fill fuel tank(s) with fresh gasoline that does not contain alcohol and a sufficient amount
of Quicksilver Gasoline Stabilizer for Marine Engines to treat gasoline. Follow instructions
on container.

2. If boat is to be placed in storage with fuel containing alcohol in fuel tanks (if fuel
without alcohol is not available): Fuel tanks should be drained as low as possible and
Quicksilver Gasoline Stabilizer for Marine Engines added to any fuel remaining in the
tank. Refer to ?Fuel Requirements? for additional information.
NOTE: If desired, a portable fuel tank can be used to perform the remainder of the power
package layup procedures. Be sure to add an appropriate amount of Gasoline Stabilizer to
the portable tank.

3. Run engine sufficiently to bring it up to normal operating temperature and allow fuel with
Quicksilver Gasoline Stabilizer to circulate through fuel system.

4. Shut off engine.

5. Change oil and oil filter.

6. Flush cooling system. Refer to ?Flushing Cooling System? procedure.

7. Close the fuel shutoff valve, if equipped. If no fuel shutoff valve is present, a suitable
method must be employed to STOP the flow of fuel from the fuel tank to the engine
before proceeding.

8. Prepare EFI fuel system for extended storage as follows:
a. Allow engine to cool down.
b. Remove the water separating fuel filter.
c. Pour out a small amount of fuel into a suitable container, then add approximately 2
fluid ounces (60 ml) of Quicksilver 2-Cycle Outboard Oil to fuel in the water separating
fuel filter.
d. Reinstall water separating fuel filter.
e. Start and operate engine at idle speed until the water separating fuel filter and fuel
injection system are empty and engine stops.
f. Remove and discard water separating fuel filter.
g. Install new filter.

9. Prepare carbureted fuel system for extended storage as follows:
a. Remove flame arrestor assembly and start engine.
b. While operating engine at fast idle (1000-1500 rpm), fog internal surfaces of induction
system and combustion chambers by squirting approximately 8 ounces (227
grams) of Quicksilver Storage Seal or SAE 20W engine oil into carburetor bores.
c. Squirt the remaining 2 ounces (57 g) of Storage Seal (or oil) rapidly into carburetor,
just as the engine begins to stall due to lack of fuel. Allow engine to stop.

10. Turn ignition key to OFF position.

11. Refer to ?Flushing Cooling System? and appropriately remove water supply to the seawater
pickup pump.

12. Clean flame arrestor and crankcase ventilation hoses and reinstall.

13. Lubricate all items listed in ?Lubrication? section.

14. Drain seawater section of cooling system as outlined in ?Draining Instructions? section.

15. On Models with Closed Cooling System: Test coolant to ensure that it will withstand
the lowest temperature expected during storage.

16. Service batteries per manufacturer?s instructions.

17. Clean outside of engine and repaint any areas required with Quicksilver Primer and
Spray Paint. After paint has dried, spray Quicksilver Corrosion and Rust Preventive
Type II or wipe down with Quicksilver Storage Seal or SAE 20W engine oil.

18. For sterndrive unit layup, refer to appropriate sterndrive service manual.
NOTE: For additional protection against freezing and rust to the exhaust manifolds and
other components, a 50-50 mixture of antifreeze and water can be run through the engine
during Power Package Layup.

 

[Dozerlady]

Re: Block cracked after Winterization - how can this happen?

Hi Neil,

I'm just a woman but I'll add my two cents for what it's worth. I concur with all the guys here. As mother always said, "something is definitely rotten in Denmark". If this had happened to us, my husband would be all over that marina, and fur would be flying! They did something wrong, question is what?

Maybe they cracked it during the winterization process by draining the oil and coolant and running the engine to do the fuel system part of the job, trying to do it all simultaneously. Maybe they swapped out your motor or block with a bad one, since it was left with them all winter. Or maybe they are just lying and taking you for a fool who will just believe what they tell you and hand over 5 or 6k. I don't trust anybody. The world is full of morons and crooks. And in this economy with businesses struggling to remain afloat, ripoffs are more likely to occur.

I took my previous truck in for the first oil change when it was new (3000 miles). Luckily I was watching the guy that did they oil change. I left feeling a bit leery since he had great difficulty determining the amount of oil on the dipstick. Drove it home and parked it. Next day I pulled the stick, no oil on it. So I began adding oil and rechecking. It took 4 1/2 qts to fill it and it only holds 6 1/2. So he only put 2 qts in it. Imagine if I had blindly trusted him and kept driving it. And how would I have ever proved they didn't fill it all the way if it seized 3000 miles later? I now do all my own oil changes!

Did they pull the dipstick and show you it was empty and had rust on the stick? Did they show you the crack in the block? Did you recheck the serial number on the motor with your records? Have you googled the net for other people complaining about that marina or called the BBB? Have you checked court records for any other lawsuits against them?

You would need to hire an expert witness to look over your engine and appear in court to testify against them if you were to file a lawsuit. That could end up costing you as much as what they want to charge you for a new block. If it were me, I wouldn't pull it out of their place until you decide how to proceed. Once you remove it they can say it was fine when it was there, and something happened to it after that. Also, document everything, including every face to face conversation and phone calls to them with the date and time, who you spoke to, and what was said. Documentation is everything in court. Maybe if you keep talking to them and insisting there was nothing wrong when you brought it to them, you might get a whole lot of different stories from them each time.

Good luck, I feel for ya

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Block cracked after Winterization - how can this happen?

If you get a lawyer involved just keep in mind that you aren't paying for a result, you're paying for a service. Might end up behind where you started, but obviously your call.

I'm not understanding whether there are two issues, or one issue and some speculation. I gather that the block is cracked, but where does the bit about no oil come into play? Are you sure they said/meant 'oil' and not 'anti-freeze' (as in, the previous marina did not put antifreeze in the engine when they winterized it and thats why the block cracked).

From my own experience its very hard to prove a negative.

About the only shot at proving negatives is to work backwards. So instead of:

No winterization -> regular water in engine -> freezing regular water -> cracked block,

try:

Cracked block <- caused by [A, B, or C] <- caused by [D, E, or F] <- etc.

Eliminate possible causes and what you're left with is what likely happened. The only key is you have to be careful about your assumptions.

 

[stonyloam]

Re: Block cracked after Winterization - how can this happen?

Cracked block <- caused by [A, B, or C] <- caused by [D, E, or F] <- etc.

Eliminate possible causes and what you're left with is what likely happened. The only key is you have to be careful about your assumptions.

Interesting, except there is no B,C,D,E only A-> freezing water cracked block. or cracked block <- A caused by freezing water no difference which way the arrows point there is only one basic cause the block was not properly drained.

 

[Bamaman1]

Re: Block cracked after Winterization - how can this happen?

The auto based Mercruiser engines virtually never wear out. Marine salvage yards are full of boats that were never properly winterized.

What's so bad is that inboard/outboards are so easily winterized. Pull a couple of plugs out of the engine block, open the exhaust/header drain, and the water drains out.

 

[Neilbcox]

Re: Block cracked after Winterization - how can this happen?

latest update:

Marina says that they noticed the cracked block before they winterized the boat last Novermber...They say they left me a voice mail about the problem and not wanting to do anymore damage to the boat they went ahead and winterized the boat. They said that last year the reason the motor did not seeze up or that there was no oil in the bay was because they think the crack in the block is internal and with that the oil could have been pushed out through the water cooling system. They also say that the rust on the dip stick did not show up until this year and was not rusty last year. I asked them that if the oil was going out the cooling system would the boat not have oil on the hull...they again said no.

I asked him why the oil gage never showed a low pressure number he said that with the water in the engine that the pressure would not necessary show low. I asked him if the engine was cracked internally and with the water and oil changing places that the crack would have indeed showed on the pressure gage.

HELP>>>>>>

Thanks to everyone for your feedback.

 

[blay127]

Re: Block cracked after Winterization - how can this happen?

dont know if this helps any, but i was in a similar situation this spring as you, except i winterized the boat myself. Boat ran great last fall, i winterized it and put it up for the winter. Come spring time i got out and ran it and checked the oil only to find it milky. I changed the oil and ran it some more and guess what, more milk. I guess not all of the water drained out when i pulled the plugs and my block cracked in the lifter valley right under the intake manifold. while running it this spring with the cracked block, it seemingly ran just fine and showed good oil pressure on the gauge. you wouldnt have known anything was wrong until you checked the oil.

 

[Neilbcox]

Re: Block cracked after Winterization - how can this happen?

did you have to replace the entire block?

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Block cracked after Winterization - how can this happen?

I'd say it's time to lawyer up. There is no way in hell a mechanic would simply leave a voicemail about an issue like a cracked engine block, then just go ahead and put it up with no resolution to the problem from the customer. Why would you waste the time/materials to winterize a trashed block? It stinks of foul play and I'd simply contact them and tell you that your lawyer would be handling all further communications.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Block cracked after Winterization - how can this happen?

latest update:

Marina says that they noticed the cracked block before they winterized the boat last Novermber...They say they left me a voice mail about the problem and not wanting to do anymore damage to the boat they went ahead and winterized the boat. They said that last year the reason the motor did not seeze up or that there was no oil in the bay was because they think the crack in the block is internal and with that the oil could have been pushed out through the water cooling system. They also say that the rust on the dip stick did not show up until this year and was not rusty last year. I asked them that if the oil was going out the cooling system would the boat not have oil on the hull...they again said no.

I asked him why the oil gage never showed a low pressure number he said that with the water in the engine that the pressure would not necessary show low. I asked him if the engine was cracked internally and with the water and oil changing places that the crack would have indeed showed on the pressure gage.

HELP>>>>>>

Thanks to everyone for your feedback.

Ayuh,.... They, 'n him are Full of Poo....

 

[dn010]

Re: Block cracked after Winterization - how can this happen?

I'd say it's time to lawyer up. There is no way in hell a mechanic would simply leave a voicemail about an issue like a cracked engine block, then just go ahead and put it up with no resolution to the problem from the customer. Why would you waste the time/materials to winterize a trashed block? It stinks of foul play and I'd simply contact them and tell you that your lawyer would be handling all further communications.

I agree, no way a mechanic is going to waste his time preventing damage to something already broken beyond repair... It would seem that if the block WAS cracked upon delivery, they wouldn't want to do all the work, hold onto it for months and then return it to you - wouldn't they want you to come get it ASAP to prevent these kind of legal problems?? Bad situation - Good luck to you, I hope they make this right.

 

[LilRedNeckGirl]

Re: Block cracked after Winterization - how can this happen?

Realisticly, with the time that has passed, proving who is at fault or the root cause is near impossiable. Save the lawyer fee, go find a good new engine, and get the boat fixed.
You never mention what engine yur dealing with, but i see most 4 cyl, 6 cyl, and 8 cyl engines for sale, online as rebuilt units from reputable MFG's at less then a lawyer would cost.
After the boat is fixed, then if your looking for a shot at recovering a bit of cash, just file a case in small claims curt, nix the lawyer and take your facts, receipts and let the judge decide.

 

[zx9rstv]

Re: Block cracked after Winterization - how can this happen?

Most companies hear the phrase. " well you can speak with my lawyer going forward." then never hear from a lawyer. They know most people bluff about this. SO when a letter appears out of nowhere. they know they have a problem and want to fix it without litigation.
Don't tell them you're going to get a lawyer just contact a lawyer and ask how much they will charge to send a letter pertaining to this situation. Might only be a a couple hundred dollars. Usually that would be sufficient in "scaring" the company in question to deal with your situation When they suddenly get a letter from a lawyer about this. More times than not they will want to work with you.