Advice on trimming.

[fishguy]

Hey folks. Wondering if anyone can offer suggestions..or help on this.Got the first (real) boat this summer. 14' Arkansas Traveler, and a 20hp Evinrude. I'd include the prop pitch, but I'm at work and just can't remember it..sorry. It's the pitch that the owners manual calls for as the standard prop. I had to replace it shortly after buying the boat, and tried a couple different props and found that the one listed in the manual worked the best.
Anyways...here's the problem. Or not a problem...I dunno. With me in the boat, it's a bit scary to run at WOT. The boat's light and is out of the hole in a matter of a couple seconds. The problem is that it plows in the front. To the point that I throttle back before turning.With myself in the front and a fishing buddy in the rear seat, it's a dream...With myself and my small daughter in the front, and my wife and son in the back, I might as well save gas by leaving the Rude on the shore and rely on the wind to push me along. It won't plane, and goes faster just off idle that it wil at 1/2 - 3/4 throttle. Under power, the back end squats and it goes nowhere. Just off idle it sits level and goes just as fast. I know...I'm under powered. Well, for dragging the whole family with me (plus gear for the day) The only means of trimming I have is the 4 adjustment holes on the motor. (You know, flip the tab, pull the pin, tip the motor in or out)The manual says that the motor will work best on most boats with the pin at the 2nd hole from the transom. By golly, they're right... Alone, the pin placement doesn't really matter, it plows in the front at all settings. With me and a buddy, the 2nd hole is perfect. With the family, the setting doesn't matter either...it just goes blaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. I'm just chucking this out there for feedback.How can I get the back end down when I'm alone? I've tried putting the toolbox, lunch cooler, anchor, and the 6gal tank, AND a full 6gal jerry can all in the back, behind the rear seat. It still plows to the point of me not being comfortable (okay, scared..lol) And throttling back doesn't help...with me alone it will still plane way back at nearly 1/4 throttle. As long as it's on plane, it's plowing. I don't think I'm over-reacting to the plowing because it feels really nice with 2 people in it...not twitchy, not draggy..feels light and nimble. No problem to lay it over and slide the ***** end in a hard turn...but still feels right. I know...get a bigger boat, or more engine. (Or both) Well, I've pretty well got the wife sold on a 30 or a 40 for it (next year..maybe...sweety?)...but that's going to make my plowing problem worse. Isn't it? Granted, it's a real let-down that the whole family can't go...that was kind of the point of getting a pleasure boat. But it works not too bad without our 13 yearold future linebacker son...and being 13, he won't want to go ANYWHERE with us next year anyway...right? hehe Okay...let me have it. What do you think? And for the next few years, this will be the boat I have to work with. By then we'll likely get into something a bit bigger. Oh yeah, here's the boat http://picasaweb.google.com/gcfishguy/BoatAlbum And I'm looking for bow light lenses, and general info on my boat. I rescued it from a field, in a state of sad neglect. There's no hull ID, and I talked to another boater that had one nearly the same, no ID on his either. From the fiberglassics page, I'm guessing it's a 64-65...If somebody can tell me for sure, I'll owe them one! I launched at a small gravel ramp a few weeks ago and saw an abandoned shell of a boat up the beach a ways. I went and looked, it's the identical hull as mine. Except for the colour. Was there a lot of Arkansas Travelers sold..? OR just a fluke? Any info anyone may have is welcomed....please and thanks!

 

[Jdeagro]

Re: Advice on trimming.

AC - NB<br /><br />Looks like you have done a lot of work on this boat. Nice Job!<br /><br />As for the motor trim, since it is not electric, you have an issue. With only you in the boat, if it is truely running bow down the you will need to move the trim adjustment pin out more. Just incase you do not know - when the pin is in the hole closest to the transom, the motor will push up on the back and rotate the front of the boat down. This position is generaly used to make it easier for the boat to plane. However this possition can also make the boat run bow down once it is on plane, especially if there is no additional weight in the back of the boat.<br /><br />moving the pin out ( opposite) will tend to push the transom down and the bow up. It is all about ballance. <br /><br />With the family in the boat you apparently have more weight than the motor can handle to get the boat on plane. In this instance you have two choices, one, change the prop to a lower pitch to give you more torq. Just like putting your car in low gear to pull a heavy load. If this resolves the problem for the family adventures, it may make the problem worse when you are alone. Trimming the motor to suite the load is also a given but that is easier than changing the prop every time you use the boat with a different load.<br /><br />The second choice is to use trim tabs ( Smart Tabs ST980-30). This would give you additional and continuosly active and adjustable planning surface which would facilitate both getting on plane and varying loads. You would need to test the different motor trim positions to determine which would work best, but one this was done you could leave it alone.<br /><br />Do you have a hydrofoil on the motor? Are you sure the boat is running bow down with only yourself in the boat?

 

[ED21]

Re: Advice on trimming.

It's a nice looking little boat. As a kid we had a very similar looking boat(Glastron I think) w/ a 25 Elgin motor that pushed it good. We upgraded later to a 40 Johnson to pull water skiers. I suspect you are underpowered. From your pics it looks like you already have the motor trimmed up & I wouldn't expect it to plow.

 

[Old Jarhead]

Re: Advice on trimming.

nautiJohn might have hit on something with the hydrofoil question.<br /><br />A Doel-Fin might help and at around $35-$40 it's worth a try.<br /><br />Just my 2 cents...

 

[fishguy]

Re: Advice on trimming.

Thanks for the thoughts folks!<br /><br />I can say for sure that it doesn't matter where I set that pin when I'm alone...it doesn't seem to make much difference when I'm all alone, and same thing when I'm loaded with the whole family. But when it's myself and a fishing buddy, I can tell it makes some difference.<br /><br />I guess my biggest issue is when I take the whole family out. It's not much fun if I have to run just off idle all day, and that's where I sit now. I can WOT, but it just makes more noise and a bigger wake. It DOES go a bit faster, but certainly won't plane. <br /><br />I looked into the trim tabs mentioned above, and they'll likely run me close to $200 Canadian, from what I see. (Taxes and all) The thing I'm woried about is buying them, and drilling holes in the transom, and then finding out I still can't plane. Then I'm out $200.<br />The hydrofoil idea sounds good too...but if it didn't plane with the foil/wing, I'd still be stuck with it. Cheaper test, though.<br /><br />What I think I will do is pay a visit to the prop shop, and see if they'll lend me a prop with a lower pitch for trysies. I was very happy with the service they gave me..I had to buy a prop right after I got the boat, and I was treated well.<br />That prop spun soon (less than a month) after I bought it. (rebuilt prop) I called the foreman at the prop shop, and he came in on his afternoon off and re-hubbed it himself. He assured me that it wasn't anything I had done wrong, just crappy luck. That prop was only $70 (Canadian), soo..if I try a lower pitch prop and it planes with the family in it, I'm a happy camper.<br />It only takes a matter of 2 minutes to remove and reinstall the prop. And, anytime we go boating, the boat's trailered and then put in the water....so it would be nothing to swap out the prop, depending on the conditions. Plus, I'd have a spare prop if anything nasty ever happened out on the water.<br /><br />In my opinion, something that gave me just a little bit of advantage would be enough. Fully loaded, it acts like it's trying to climb a wave, and it just doesn't have quite enough schnootz to get that last little bit.<br /><br />Yes, I realize that I'm under-powered with a 20, considering 2 adults, one 8 yearold, and a 13 yearold the size of most adults.Umm..plus the dog..35lbs there..and a cooler...and the 16 changes of clothes my wife insists on bringing for the kids, plus the toolbox, plus the extra tank of gas, plus the anchor, plus....<br /><br />Okay, who's got a 40 horse for sale?? LOL<br /><br />The good news is that it's a sweet little boat 90% of the time...I find it handles nice, and with me, wifey and a cooler it does 25mph (according to the speedo on my buddy's sea-doo jet boat)....I love it, and am very happy with it.<br />It was a test..$1200 out of pocket, and then a bit of sprucing up. If we like boating, then we'll move up in a couple years. If we don't like boating...well, they can just stay home when I go. hehe<br /><br />We spent a lot of quality time this summer fishing, exploring the lakes and coastline around home, swimming, and just getting out and doing something. <br />I let my daughter be captain for a few minutes one day we were fishing (no other boats around, and I was holding the wheel too)...I snapped the pic below. That's what it's all about.<br /><br /> http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/fishguy/Captain.jpg

 

[akriverrat]

Re: Advice on trimming.

two things come to mind; 1)how high is engine mounted? 2)is the bottom dished in at all just forward of the transom? third question after looking at pics, is the trim position shown with boat on anchor pic the normal run trim?

 

[mattttt25]

Re: Advice on trimming.

ac- i'm sure most people that read these forums wish everyone put as much effort into their posts as you do. you tell the whole story. thank you. as for your problem, i was going to suggest raising the motor and adding a foil, but it sounds like it won't work. i really think the only solution is a bigger engine, and i'm guessing you know that. looks like a heavy boat for a tiny 20hp. i don't think any trick will overcome that fact. good luck-

 

[fishguy]

Re: Advice on trimming.

akriverrat - <br /><br />The motor's sitting right on the top of the transon (no jack plates or anything). Sorry if that's not what you meant.<br />The anti-cav plate sits about 3/4" below the bottow edge of the center keel.<br />And the pictures show the motor adjusted to the 2nd hole from the transom. That's where it seems to work the best, right across the board.<br />The adjustment doesn't make a difference that I can see, when I'm alone, OR when I'm loaded with the family. But it does make a noticable difference when there's 2 people in the boat...one in front and one in back.<br /><br />The 'dished' question makes me wonder what you know and I don't. <br />Yes, the hull was pushed up about a foot and a half from the transom. The trailer has 3 rollers across the back, and the keels were cracked right where each rear roller sits. I flipped it over, ground away a foot in either direction (all 3 keels) and replaced the damaged wood with 3/8" stainless steel rod. I know that sounds extreme, but the boat gets trailered everywhere, and the 3 chunks of rod might weigh 3 lbs combined. Some of the places I fish are on some pretty crappy roads, and I didn't want to run the risk of cracking it again.<br />When I did the repair, I had the boat upside down on stands and used a bottle jack with a 2x4 on end to put pressure on the inside of the boat while I did each keel. I checked the lines from the transom, up about 6'7 feet. Sitting upside down on stands, the lines are perfect, no sagging at the repair.<br />Also, now when it sits on the trailer, it doesn't bend up at the back rollers.<br /><br />Please don't tell me that there's supposed to be a concave area just in front of the transom. <br /><br />As for the long winded posts.....<br />I spent a lot of years writing work orders and dispatching work in a GM dealership. I know, the more information you have about a problem, the easier it is to start trying to diagnose it.<br /><br />Anyways...I have a feeling I'm trying to get 300mph in the 1/4 mile with a Yugo...LOL <br />I should be happy that the boat's exactly what we need right now, with the exception of the times I have to put the whole family in there.<br /><br />Any thoughts on switching props out depending on the application..? Like I said, a reman prop is only $70.00 Canadian.<br /><br />I want to thank all the techs and people with lots of boat-smarts for taking the time to browse through this board and lend a hand when they can.<br /><br />Awesome forum...by far the best I've found.

 

[Northern Eclipse]

Re: Advice on trimming.

AB My younger brothers first boat was a a 1963 traveler, yours looks to be its twin I think the model was called Comet, anyway Yes you can go up to a 40hp, that is the max rating, The '63 my brother had my father bought for him from original owner, it still had it 40 rude big twin, which is orginal to the boat, the boat is still in use today and so is the big twin and runs at about 35 with two big lard butts (brother sold it to his buddy) anyway your boat sure looks like a comet...which in its day was a real sporty boat. yours is the only other one I'v seen.

 

[fishguy]

Re: Advice on trimming.

I think you're right.....<br /><br />I can't find anything exactly the same at the fiberglassics page, but the registration that came with it said "Comet Traveler". <br />I'm confused about the whole Arkansas Traveler vs. Comet Traveler vs. Traveler Comet thing...<br /><br />Maybe the sister company in Peterborough Ontario was just called Traveler, and not Arkansas Traveler like its affilliates on the US.

 

[ryan1]

Re: Advice on trimming.

I have a traveler comet the engine is a 63 40hp Johnson so I believe the boat is a 63 too

 

[gcfishguy]

Re: Advice on trimming.

Same guy, different nickname...I have to stop changing email addresses and things....to hard to keep track of everything...

Well, here's an update, in case anyone has the same problem as me.

Oh, and I've learned a lot since my first post here, so thanks to you all...

What I had, is known as a 'broken back'. The homemade trailer that the boat was sitting on when I bought it was...lacking in design.
The rear-most rollers were about 2' in from the back of the transom, so ALL the weight of the back of the boat, the outboard, fuel tank, etc, was ALL supported by those rollers. That's a lot of weight to have hanging off those rollers.
That led to all three keels cracking, and creating a permanent bend in them. So, what was happening is that the boat was trying to plane flat on the water. trouble is, the concave area caused the stern to rise at higher speeds, because in order to plane on the surface of the hull, the stern had to rise to try and match the odd angle of the last 2' of the hull. Make sense...? I hope so...

Even after grinding out the rotten keels, using weights to remove the bend, and using steel rod in the rebuilt keels, the problem was still there.
Why? Because i didn;t have enough sense to realize that it was the trailer that was still causing problems.

I have since replaced the old 20hp Rude with a much newer 35hp Merc. The trailer that caused all the problems to begin with has now been replaced with a new bunk trailer.

My problem is getting much better. Not because of the new motor, but because of the bunk trailer. The concave area is actually straightening out, year by year, the longer that it sits, supported PROPERLY on the bunks.

Now, I can cruise at WOT (with the 35hp), alone, and the front end dips only slightly. It still dips down enough that i slack off in choppy water, or when crossing a wake, but NOTHING like it used to be.

Moral of the story? Well...it was my first boat, I bought it out of a field, there was grass over 3' high growing up all around it, and I actually couldn't tell there was even a trailer under it until i barked my knee on it.
So, even if i did have the first clue what to look for, i likely couldn't have seen it.
I learned a lot more things to consider and to look for before I buy another one ;-)

So, for all the folks that helped me understand my planing problem, thank you.
And, to the folks that helped me easily understand and resolve a current charging issue that I had, thank you too.

These forums have been invaluable to a new boat owner, and I want to thank everyone that is kind enough to share their information with the newer folks that need it.

Happy boating!!!

<><

 

[SeaKaye12]

Re: Advice on trimming.

sheesh...I was bummed because the links to your pictures weren't working...and then I see why:

This post dates back to 2003....

Can ya re-do the links so we can see what the traveler looks like? You've got my curiosity up now....

I guess your 13 y/o is 17 now; eh? Time flies on this forum!

Thanks for reading; Chuck

 

[gcfishguy]

Re: Advice on trimming.

links are working again.

 

[MikDee]

Re: Advice on trimming.

As a general rule about motor placement, your cavitation plate should be paralell with the bottom, in a straight line, use a straight edge off the bottom, and put your pin in the motor to suit. If you can't get it close, err on the side of next highest hole.