Adding third log to 25 ft Suntracker Party barge

[werseabee]

Hi folks! Have followed this forum for years and know there's some darn smart people out there who've "been there and done that". Need some advice from the brain trust! I'll try to give you as much info as possible so you're better able to offer sage advice.

Have a 9 year old 25 Ft. Party Barge but when you have a party of more than three or four in the front it rides "nose low" in the water and is a wet ride even a half power. Re-powered last year with a new Merc 115 4 stroke. Great boat with only 2 or 3 people riding in the back but when you add a few people to the front...it stinks if there's any chop at all. The new engine has a standard shaft length and already sits a low in the water as it can be set to get a adequate bite with the cupped prop to have acceptable performance.

Have a old Sylvian 22 (junker that's stripped to a empty deck and used as a dock) and was considering scrapping it and using one of logs (in good shape) to add a third (center log) to the Party Barge to fix the serious (In my humble opinion)design flaw. The "Barge" has approx. 25 inch logs (I think) and the Sylvian has approx. 21 or 22 inch logs. I understand that I'd have to mount the "new" center log forward enough of the engine pod to insure water flow to the engine is not disrupted which would result in the center log being about 18 inches forward of the existing logs.

I know you can put a 2X4 along the top of the third log to push it down so it won't turn into extra weight and drag with no lift value but it will still be "riding two inches higher and giving less lift" than the two outboard logs.

IS doing this a crazy, stupid project to contemplate or should I just live with the Party Barge limitations? Any advice or thoughts?

 

[Water logged]

Re: Adding third log to 25 ft Suntracker Party barge

Are you sure you are getting full floatation from the two logs you have? I have run my 24 ft Party Barge with 5 people forward and me at the helm and the bow was never low enough to be a problem. Maybe you have some water in your toons.

Glenn

 

[wedge542]

Re: Adding third log to 25 ft Suntracker Party barge

just asking but are you sure those are 25d logs now? do they stick out in front past the end about 18" at the cone? and at back does your fuel tank sit ontop the logs in a pan?

 

[crb478]

Re: Adding third log to 25 ft Suntracker Party barge

I did this once to a friends boat that liked to submarine on our lake in heavy traffic/waves. He had a shorter center toon but the switch worked out well for his boat. We did end up moving the center toon up about 6 inches in front of the others to help with turbulence after the initial set up. It let him let more people set up front where they seem to gravitate anyway and definately handled the waves better.

I would say as long as you have the toon available why not try it? It shouldn't cost you much more then time. Where are you located? If you close enough I might be interested in the other toon to try it out on mine.

 

[Bamaman1]

Re: Adding third log to 25 ft Suntracker Party barge

Is the new motor a 25" motor? If you used a 20" motor off a bassboat, like I did, too much weight on the front end raises the back end too much. My boat's fast when lightly loaded, but catches air with passengers in the front seats. I just ask the people riding in the nose to move to the back.

A fix might be a adjustable jack plate--preferably hydraulic. That would give you an extra 5" you can drop the motor. Sometimes just an inch or two makes all the difference. If you've invested in your new motor, I understand you really want it to be right.

 

[werseabee]

Re: Adding third log to 25 ft Suntracker Party barge

Are you sure you are getting full floatation from the two logs you have? I have run my 24 ft Party Barge with 5 people forward and me at the helm and the bow was never low enough to be a problem. Maybe you have some water in your toons.

Glenn

Glenn, Thanks for the idea....But....had that checked last year and the logs are empty. Will have the boat out of the water again in the next month for the first service on the new engine and will have it checked again. The 4 or 5 people I have on the front are all adults...usually two or three 200 lb guys and two 130 to 160 lb women. I figure the gross weight to be around 800 to 900 lbs.

 

[werseabee]

Re: Adding third log to 25 ft Suntracker Party barge

I did this once to a friends boat that liked to submarine on our lake in heavy traffic/waves. He had a shorter center toon but the switch worked out well for his boat. We did end up moving the center toon up about 6 inches in front of the others to help with turbulence after the initial set up. It let him let more people set up front where they seem to gravitate anyway and definately handled the waves better.

I would say as long as you have the toon available why not try it? It shouldn't cost you much more then time. Where are you located? If you close enough I might be interested in the other toon to try it out on mine.

I'm at Lake Hartwell near Anderson SC on the Ga/SC border.

What did the extra weight do to performance. Mine runs around 25 mph with just my wife and I and maybe one or two others on board. With more up front...the 4 or 5 people I mentioned....the best I can safely do with the low front is usually in the 12 to 15 range.

 

[werseabee]

Re: Adding third log to 25 ft Suntracker Party barge

Is the new motor a 25" motor? If you used a 20" motor off a bassboat, like I did, too much weight on the front end raises the back end too much. My boat's fast when lightly loaded, but catches air with passengers in the front seats. I just ask the people riding in the nose to move to the back.

A fix might be a adjustable jack plate--preferably hydraulic. That would give you an extra 5" you can drop the motor. Sometimes just an inch or two makes all the difference. If you've invested in your new motor, I understand you really want it to be right.

The new motor is NOT a long shaft but a regular. The engine is already mounted so low that I don't think I can move it lower given that the exhaust ports are only slightly above water level. When lightly loaded the boat runs like a scalded dog (25 mph) for me and handles great. It's just when you get a "party" of 5 more up front that it gets nose-low and dogs out on me.

 

[werseabee]

Re: Adding third log to 25 ft Suntracker Party barge

just asking but are you sure those are 25d logs now? do they stick out in front past the end about 18" at the cone? and at back does your fuel tank sit ontop the logs in a pan?

The logs don't stick out more than a few inches in front of the deck on the 25 party barge and, no, the 40 gallon tank sits on the rear deck over the port side log not on a pan directly on top of the log. With a full tank of gas that rear port-side log only has 3 to 4 inches showing above the water at a floating stop but rides fine under power.

The 25 party barge basically has a alum. deck that covers the entire lenght of the logs.

I'll double check the diameter of the logs but are pretty sure they're in the range of 24'ish inches diameter.

 

[wedge542]

Re: Adding third log to 25 ft Suntracker Party barge

ok,justa thought, you say the port log sits very low at stop but rides fine at cruise telling me the rear is being lifted under power meaning motor is getting tucked under toon from transom angle or after you trimed the motors trim is slowly leaking and motor goes back to full stop on the transom and causing the front to push down in the water, one problem is a 20" shaft,you can only lower it so much till exh goes under or when you stop water comes over rear of motor and can get into cowling if big wave so your limited there, but raise motor at home about halfway let sit to see if it lowers by itself indicating a trim cyl internal leak, if no then it can be a leak while under power pushing on it meaning a presure regulator or pump presure ck valve. if this all good then youll need to add a 25-27" short log at very front toon holding front up.

 

[crb478]

Re: Adding third log to 25 ft Suntracker Party barge

On his boat he picked up a few mph, like maybe 3-4. He had a smaller motor maybe a 60 or 70 hp on a 22-24 foot pontoon. He moved about 5 years ago, but for him it let him go out in rougher water and still bring everyone back realtively dry. For some reason his boat set pretty much level when docked and the 3rd log gave the bow of the boat a lift. Let me know if you decide to try it.

 

[lmuss53]

Re: Adding third log to 25 ft Suntracker Party barge

I did this on my 20 foot pontoon to try and gain some performance. It was easy, and cheap with a log found sitting at a boat yard, but I ended up taking it back off because my boat got too high in the water with it at speed and pulled the prop out of the water. You can read the story of how it was done here:

http://www.pdbmagazine.com/fusetalk/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=90&threadid=24444&enterthread=y

Here is my boat with the third log on.

If you are at all handy this is a doable project, and I think a log similar to mine would get your bow up and give you the stability and performance you need without getting the problems I had. My boat is rated for 60 HP and I committed the ultimate pontoon sin by putting the 90HP Johnny on. When I couldn't get it to work well and was faced with starting to cut on the transom of a 5 year old boat I just abandoned the project and went to the current 55 hp on my pontoon.

Your boat is rated for your power and keeping the bow up should only enhance your ride.

My center log did NOT interfere with the flow of water to my prop, which is what I thought was happening. My problem was that the logs came up out of the water so high with the 90 that they pulled the motor out of the water. I still had the problem with the center log removed. The boat would run out to about 30 MPH, all the time riding higher and higher in the water, and then let go of the water. If I had a 25 inch motor it would still be on and I would have a three log 30+ MPH pontoon.

I would make sure you don't have any water in you tubes before you get to far into this, but we all know what 3 or 4 more people do to your 'toon ride. The short time I had this tube on I noticed a tremendous improvement in the ride and stability. I've seen Tracker pontoons with a 5 to 6 foot long center pontoon, that the owner says makes for a tremendous ride compared to a 2 log boat. I can get a picture of one if you'd like.

Good luck on your project.

 

[Mi duckdown]

Re: Adding third log to 25 ft Suntracker Party barge

If your are putting people forward when running your done. It is all about ballast. Remember YOU are th Captain of the boat.

 

[5150abf]

Re: Adding third log to 25 ft Suntracker Party barge

Yes you can add the 3rd tube and it should run fine, the 2x4 is a good idea but get one that is treated and seperate it from the aluminum, we use a foam tape at work, it doesn't have to be real thick as long as the wood isn't in direct contact with the aluminum.

They don't play well together.

 

[werseabee]

Re: Adding third log to 25 ft Suntracker Party barge

I did this on my 20 foot pontoon to try and gain some performance. It was easy, and cheap with a log found sitting at a boat yard, but I ended up taking it back off because my boat got too high in the water with it at speed and pulled the prop out of the water. You can read the story of how it was done here:

http://www.pdbmagazine.com/fusetalk/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=90&threadid=24444&enterthread=y

Here is my boat with the third log on.

If you are at all handy this is a doable project, and I think a log similar to mine would get your bow up and give you the stability and performance you need without getting the problems I had. My boat is rated for 60 HP and I committed the ultimate pontoon sin by putting the 90HP Johnny on. When I couldn't get it to work well and was faced with starting to cut on the transom of a 5 year old boat I just abandoned the project and went to the current 55 hp on my pontoon.

Your boat is rated for your power and keeping the bow up should only enhance your ride.

My center log did NOT interfere with the flow of water to my prop, which is what I thought was happening. My problem was that the logs came up out of the water so high with the 90 that they pulled the motor out of the water. I still had the problem with the center log removed. The boat would run out to about 30 MPH, all the time riding higher and higher in the water, and then let go of the water. If I had a 25 inch motor it would still be on and I would have a three log 30+ MPH pontoon.

I would make sure you don't have any water in you tubes before you get to far into this, but we all know what 3 or 4 more people do to your 'toon ride. The short time I had this tube on I noticed a tremendous improvement in the ride and stability. I've seen Tracker pontoons with a 5 to 6 foot long center pontoon, that the owner says makes for a tremendous ride compared to a 2 log boat. I can get a picture of one if you'd like.

Good luck on your project.

Would love to talk to you directly if at all possible to save some time typing and be able to ask some specifics.
The "additional" log is about 3 inches less in diameter than the two on the tracker (will be partially adjusted for by the 2X4 I'll put between it and the boat when I mount it but it will still ride "higher" and probably produce drag at low speeds and a light load....expect fuel efficiency to go down in these circumstances.

The additional log is also about 4 feet shorter than the existing logs. My additional log seems to be exactly the same shape and diameter as the one you used.

HOW FAR FORWARD OF THE Point for TRANSOM FOR THE ENGINE SHOULD i MOUNT IT TO INSURE I DON'T SCREW UP WATER FLOW TO THE ENGINE FOR PROP BITE????????

The answer to that question will determine if I might have to shorten the log itself because I can only move it so far forward before it won't go on the trailer.

The back of my boat is "heavy" relative to the front (as long as no one's in the front and when they are the whole boat rides low. So I don't think I'll have a problem with the engine getting "air" although it's not very low at the prop so more than two or three inches of extra "lift" might cause a problem...have to keep a eye on it if I do it. I've already realized that I absolutely need to skin the bottom of the boat....water absolutely showers the last 8 to 12 feet of the boat even with two people on board.

 

[The Rooster]

Re: Adding third log to 25 ft Suntracker Party barge

Hey "Werseabee", some additional food for thought. If you go ahead w/ the third tube, expect your prop to lose it's bite like "Imuss53" experienced. Same thing happened to me when I installed a "Pontoon Waterglide" on our old 24' Starcraft. We lowered the motor to it's lowest setting, and at their suggestion, unbolted the back (4) bolts of the motor pod, slipped in 2" of stainless steel washers and longer bolts. It solved the problem. The prop never again lost a bite. I'm sure "5150" is shaking his head, and I can't attest to the structural integrity, but it was a fast, cheap way to test the theory. We still see the boat running around today w/this setup. Good luck !!!

 

[lmuss53]

Re: Adding third log to 25 ft Suntracker Party barge

werseabee, if you want to talk to me pm me a phone number and a convenient time, I'll call you some time Sunday.

 

[lmuss53]

Re: Adding third log to 25 ft Suntracker Party barge

Here you go Skip. I see the seabee in your handle, were you in the Navy?

Great Lakes Skipper has finished tubes.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_kw=pontoon&_kw=log&_kw=transom

T and M has scratch and dents tubes, call for details.
http://tandmmarine.com/accessories/scratch-dent-floats/index.php

Custom built.
http://www.pontoonforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2274

 

[werseabee]

Re: Adding third log to 25 ft Suntracker Party barge

Here you go Skip. I see the seabee in your handle, were you in the Navy?

Great Lakes Skipper has finished tubes.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_kw=pontoon&_kw=log&_kw=transom

T and M has scratch and dents tubes, call for details.
http://tandmmarine.com/accessories/scratch-dent-floats/index.php

Custom built.
http://www.pontoonforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2274

Thanks so much....these are great sites for someone looking for a third log. Thanks for the conversation yesterday! Good "strategy" session on design. Not in the Navy...Seabee is the name of our powerboat...a 28 Chaparral bowrider that we seldom use because we prefer the pontoon boat for size, comfort and economy.

 

[werseabee]

Re: Adding third log to 25 ft Suntracker Party barge

Hi folks! Have followed this forum for years and know there's some darn smart people out there who've "been there and done that". Need some advice from the brain trust! I'll try to give you as much info as possible so you're better able to offer sage advice.

Have a 9 year old 25 Ft. Party Barge but when you have a party of more than three or four in the front it rides "nose low" in the water and is a wet ride even a half power. Re-powered last year with a new Merc 115 4 stroke. Great boat with only 2 or 3 people riding in the back but when you add a few people to the front...it stinks if there's any chop at all. The new engine has a standard shaft length and already sits a low in the water as it can be set to get a adequate bite with the cupped prop to have acceptable performance.

Have a old Sylvian 22 (junker that's stripped to a empty deck and used as a dock) and was considering scrapping it and using one of logs (in good shape) to add a third (center log) to the Party Barge to fix the serious (In my humble opinion)design flaw. The "Barge" has approx. 25 inch logs (I think) and the Sylvian has approx. 21 or 22 inch logs. I understand that I'd have to mount the "new" center log forward enough of the engine pod to insure water flow to the engine is not disrupted which would result in the center log being about 18 inches forward of the existing logs.

I know you can put a 2X4 along the top of the third log to push it down so it won't turn into extra weight and drag with no lift value but it will still be "riding two inches higher and giving less lift" than the two outboard logs.

IS doing this a crazy, stupid project to contemplate or should I just live with the Party Barge limitations? Any advice or thoughts?

FUNNY! Called Suntracker today and found out that their tri-toon model of the 25 Party Barge has a center toon that only goes from the front to about 12 inches infront of the motor mount "pod" and they just use a shorter log...like a 20 footer. That's it. I was told that as long as the center log had a similiar displacement as the outboard (side) pods that all should be fine. They would sell me their log for about $3000 plus shipping (many hundreds to a abut $1000 for shipping). I told them I could buy a similiar diameter log that not only was the same diameter but also had a motor mount at the rear end and would place the engine about 36 inches behind it's current position (better performance and no issues with adjusting engine height) for $2200'ish plus $500 to $600 shipping and the guy on the phone said...that would work and be a better deal. He also said a bit smaller diameter log mounted down so it gave similiar flotation and stopped a foot or so infront of the exiting motor pod should also work fine. Guess that answers the big questions I had now it's all about making a decision on a new log or using a old log I have from another boat and getting on with the project to have the boat ready for spring. The new log option will cost $3600 (all in...log, shipping, cost to re-mount the motor) but I'll have a "high performance" tri-toon when I'm done and no questions that it will be a boat I'll enjoy. The other option using the old log (smaller diameter log) will cost about $1500.00 and I'll have a "ok performance) tri-toon that will do ok getting the job done and fix the basic issues I had to begin with. LOL! My thanks to all who made comments and offered advice on this project. Your collective expertise was darn helpful and has helped me really understand what the heck I'm getting into on this project. It's time to talk it all over with the wife and fish or cut bait. LOL! Thanks again!