?? about mercruiser alpha 1 gen 2 upper oil seal.

HiI'mGreg

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Hi Guys,
I've been doing some reading, my boat has a problem, oil and gear lube in the back of the boat. I have talked to 2 mechanics and got 2 different storys, I need a 3rd opinion here.

Everything I have read says my bellows have a hole in them, and water is hitting the upper seal in the drive unit. The seal is leaking, and water and lube mix.

Mechanic 1 says I might have a hole in bellows, he needs to look to make sure. He says if i have a gear lube leak it is probably the propshaft seals that are letting water in. He says the upper seal in the bellows is a special one from mercruiser that is "double lipped to keep water out of the drive". Mechanic 1 say water gets into bellows all of the time, and that is why mercruiser uses this special "double lipped" seal. So when water gets into the bellows, it does not get into the drive.

Mechanic 2 says I have a very common repair. He says when bellows get water in them from a hole, that water fills the bellows and sits against the oil seal. Mechanic 2 says that seal holds oil in only. And if water sits against that seal, it will run past it and into the drive. He says as the drive heats and cools, water and oil mix, get pushed out through the seal, through the bellows, and into the boat.
I asked mechanic 2 why mechanic 1 told me about this "special double lipped oil seal" from mercruiser. Mechanic 2 laughed at me a little bit (but not badly) and said that the oil seal is a single lip oil seal only. He said that sometimes, depending on who makes the seal for mercruiser that year, that some of them have "dust lips" on them. He said they are just that, "dust lips" and do nothing to keep the water out of the drive incase it gets into the bellows. He says some seals have it, he has seen others without it. He also says he has seen some "real amatuer mechanics" out there that confuse that dust lip for being some kind of "double seal", but that it is clearly not. Mechanic 2 also tells me a common part of this repair is the shaft that goes into the drive usually gets gouged when this happens, and will need replacement, as well as the ujoints, gimbal bearing and of course all of the bellows. He also reccomends doing a shift cable since he is in there, and that is it all of 1/2 more labor to do it now, vs doing it at a later date.

Who do I believe here, is mechanic 2 pulling my leg? Is there a "special double lipped oil seal"? 1 of them is right, 1 of them is wrong, or they are both wrong. Mechanic 2 seems to think I need alot of parts of front. Mechanic 1 mentioned nothing of the sort.
Who do I believe here? Does mercruiser have any documents about "this special double lipped seal"??

Signed-- HELP!
 

Don S

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Re: ?? about mercruiser alpha 1 gen 2 upper oil seal.

There is not a double lipped seal on the ujoint shaft going into the drive. The seal is only for keeping oil in the drive. The bellows is supposed to keep the water out.
Those bellows should be replaced after 5 years (rule of thumb) to prevent them from failing and causing you to have to replace a lot of other expensive parts. On the Gen II drives they are actually fairly easy to replace, compared to the earlier Alphas.
The outdrive should be removed at least yearly (normally during winterization) to make sure things are all in good condition. Then you can check alignment, clean and lube the splined shaft. Lube ujoints, relube gimbal bearing and clean up the old grease etc.
Here is a link to the Mercruiser OEM service manual for that drive. Have a look through it and you will understand a little more about what you have.
http://www.4shared.com/document/dPQUcyn_/Service_Manual_14.html
Also, have a look at the top of this forum, for the Adults Only sticky. There is a lot of Merc info in there as well.
 

Bondo

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Re: ?? about mercruiser alpha 1 gen 2 upper oil seal.

Mechanic 2 seems to think I need alot of parts of front. Mechanic 1 mentioned nothing of the sort.

Ayuh,... Welcome Aboard,...
Listen to Mechanic #2,... He's rock solid, Right on the money,....
A Wise ole sage, that's paddled up the stream once or twice,....

Kinda like my Buddy here, Don...
If yer at All kinda Handy,...
Follow Don's advice about yer Annual service. 'n ya can do it All by yerself...

The repairs yer lookin' at right now are fairly advanced,...
Ok for a seasoned Handy Diy'er,...
Or,..
Like Mechanic #2 said,...
A pretty common Pro-Mechanic repair on a boat that Don't get it's Annual Maintenance.....
 

HiI'mGreg

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Re: ?? about mercruiser alpha 1 gen 2 upper oil seal.

Thank you both very much, thank you don for that service manual, that will take quite a bit of time to read through!
1 more question about this whole double lip thing.

I talked to mechanics 1 and 2 again. They are both swearing up and down that they are correct, and the other guy is not.

Mechanic 1 says they are all double lipped from the factory. And so I did some research and came up with this at ebasic power
http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/pc/BPI28310/MER4E

Ebasic power says the seal is not double lipped from the factory, so they offer this product instead, which they claim is double lipped. It appears to be an aftermarket part.

Through the office manager, I was able to email mechanic #2 the same thing, the mechanic had a quick look at it and told me that he does not trust any claim that any aftermarket company says. He says they will say anything to sell a part. He also says that in theory, that this double lipped seal on ebasicpower would never work they way they advertise it because all seals need a lubricant/coolant on them at all times or they burn out.

He said that if an oil seal does not have oil behind it, it burns out.
If a water seal does not have water behind it, it burns out.
He said that the oil side of the seal would have oil on it, so it would be fine, but since the bellows are supposed to be water free, the water side of seal would just burn right out. Does that make sense?

Is there such a thing as a double lipped seal? Does/has mercruiser used them? It seems like it would be a better idea. But mechanic 2 says it would never work. He says true double lipped seals would have to have fluid of some kind on both sides of the seal to work. Not fluid on 1 side and air on the other. Mechanic 2 want me to stop by the shop if I wish, he says he can show me the seal in question, he states he has one with the dust lip, and one in an older box but still new without the dust lip. So is this double lip seal as mechanic 1 puts it just a dust lip?

Arggg, Picking a boat mechanic to believe is worse than picking a barber!!
 

Bondo

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Re: ?? about mercruiser alpha 1 gen 2 upper oil seal.

Does/has mercruiser used them?

Nope,....

Why ya gettin' hung up on this Seal thing,...

The only double-lipped seals I've seen are aftermarket, 'n in Theory, Mechanic #2 is Right on the money again...
Dust shield, double-lip,..??.....
If your's is Trashed, it'll Probably need the Whole Shebang to make it Right again...

The Only way to know what it's gonna take is tear it down, clean it, inspect it, 'n Then decide what's Servicable, 'n what Ain't...

Mechanic #2 is the guy who's prepping you for the Worst,...
Maybe it'll get Better,... Maybe it Won't....

He's also the sharper tack of the two....
 

Don S

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Re: ?? about mercruiser alpha 1 gen 2 upper oil seal.

Ebasic power says the seal is not double lipped from the factory, so they offer this product instead, which they claim is double lipped. It appears to be an aftermarket part
.
That part is an aftermarket part. The OEM is a single lip seal. Best thing I can tell you is to order the OEM part (not aftermarket) and look at it. it WILL be a single lip seal.
Personally, I don't like any aftermarket seals and gaskets. Had too many failures over the years.

Personally, if you listen to and go with Mech #2 you will be in good hands. He knows what is going on, unlike your #1 mechanic. Probably never seen a Merc tech school, or he wouldn't make some of the statements he does. You would be surprised how many auto mechanics fix a boat of their own and suddenly think they are a marine mechanic, hang out a sign and are then a self proclaimed expert.
 

Bondo

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Re: ?? about mercruiser alpha 1 gen 2 upper oil seal.

You would be surprised how many auto mechanics fix a boat of their own and suddenly think they are a marine mechanic, and are then a self proclaimed expert.

Ayuh,.... I resemble That remark too.... :D :D ;)

The only short-cut I've taken with that seal Problem is,...
Pop a Speedy-sleeve onto the yoke, 'n a new seirra seal in the housing...

It's done for those "One More Lap" jobs,...
Not a Payin' Customer,....
 

HiI'mGreg

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Re: ?? about mercruiser alpha 1 gen 2 upper oil seal.

Hey Bondo..
It is not so much about the seal, it is just who to believe.
I think mechanic 1 might be trying to butter me up only to get my boat in there, and then tell me its going to be 1000's to fix once its apart. He is constantly boasting his credentials. They both sound the same age on the phone, so it is hard to tell who has more experience here. Mechanic 2 is very "matter of fact" when he speaks. He is not "wishy-washy" talking like this first guy, so I think I will give him a shot. Mechanic 1 is more like talking to a salesman!
Sounds like you 2 guys are mechanics and really know your stuff! Thank you so much. After work i'm heading to mechanic 2's to take alook at these seals, mechanic 2 says he can show me 1 with a dust lip and 1 without it, but he says once installed correctly, either seal works just fine. But he keeps on calling it a dust lip, and not a double lip. While mechanic 1 keeps on calling it a double lip.
 

Don S

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Re: ?? about mercruiser alpha 1 gen 2 upper oil seal.

Ayuh,.... I resemble That remark too.... :D :D ;)

Oh NO, not again :rolleyes:

I think you know what I was referring to. Those guys that have no real clue, yet try to tell their customer something they know nothing about.

Mechanic 1 says I might have a hole in bellows, he needs to look to make sure. He says if i have a gear lube leak it is probably the propshaft seals that are letting water in. He says the upper seal in the bellows is a special one from mercruiser that is "double lipped to keep water out of the drive". Mechanic 1 say water gets into bellows all of the time, and that is why mercruiser uses this special "double lipped" seal. So when water gets into the bellows, it does not get into the drive.

Lets break this down and answer each question seperate.
1 "He says the upper seal in the bellows is a special one from mercruiser that is "double lipped to keep water out of the drive".

As stated before, the OEM seal is single lip, not double lip, and it is NOT designed to keep water out. That is the job of the bellows.

2. "Mechanic 1 say water gets into bellows all of the time"

If it does, there is something wrong. They should ALWAYS be dry.

3. "He says if i have a gear lube leak it is probably the propshaft seals that are letting water in"

If there is water in the gear lube on a Gen II drive, I would first suspect water in the bellows. Happens all the time. If the bellows is dry, then the plastic shift shaft seal would be my first thought, after that the plastic carrier under the raw water pump. The prop shaft seal would be my last thought.
The only way to find out for sure is to pull the outdrive, check for water in the bellows. Then drain the gear lube out of the drive and do a pressure check. Spray soapy water on everything and see what bubbles.
You can guess all day, and usually end up wrong. Time to get to checking things.

Just look at what Mechanic #1 did to my meter.

imagesCAL1XKTI.jpg
 

HiI'mGreg

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Re: ?? about mercruiser alpha 1 gen 2 upper oil seal.

Haha, thanks for the humor Don.

What kills me is this.

Mechanic 1 is a mechanic at a big name marina in my area.

Mechanic 2 runs his own small shop, it is him and 3 apprentice type workers.

Have not met either of them personally yet, however, both claim to be Mercruiser Certified. So somebody is feeding me some Bovine pattys or Mercruiser certifies everybody, wether they know it or not!
 

Bt Doctur

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Re: ?? about mercruiser alpha 1 gen 2 upper oil seal.

Water trapped in the bellows comes from a "leak" in the boot or a very high bilge water level.
I`d be more inclined to listen to mech #2
 

HiI'mGreg

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Re: ?? about mercruiser alpha 1 gen 2 upper oil seal.

What makes you say that Bt Doctor?
Any input on this whole double lip/dust lip thing on the seal?
Thanks
 

Don S

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Re: ?? about mercruiser alpha 1 gen 2 upper oil seal.

Any input on this whole double lip/dust lip thing on the seal?
Thanks

It's been answered already, what the hell do want to hear ????????
 

Bt Doctur

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Re: ?? about mercruiser alpha 1 gen 2 upper oil seal.

The original shaft seal was 483323VGO, the current number on that seal is National 712250.
Merc did try the CR seal but had a high faliure rate but the seal quality was improved in later production.Current oem is 26-64893, Sierra 18-2003.
Personally, I use National seals in all my service work.
 

HiI'mGreg

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Re: ?? about mercruiser alpha 1 gen 2 upper oil seal.

Whoah there Don!
As of right now I have 3 opinions. 2 of them agree (you an mechanic 2) and 1 of them do not (mechanic 1). All I was looking for was for more opinions. Who knows, the next mechanic on here could tell me it is "double lipped" and I would be stuck at square 1, a 50/50 split.
 

muc

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Re: ?? about mercruiser alpha 1 gen 2 upper oil seal.

If you need more opinions. Do NOT take your boat to #1 he's not certified. Go to #2 he tells the truth.
 
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