A Diesel Question

[eeboater]

I have a question about Diesels. When they sit for a few seconds, say at a stoplight, and then begin to accelerate - a big puff of black smoke comes out of the exhaust.<br /><br />I never thought anything of it while it was emanating from a Semi, but I saw a little VW Jetta do it last night. I would like to think that technology has advanced enough that newer Diesels don't have to belch black smoke anymore... but I may be wrong.<br /><br />Does it have something to do with it running too rich? I'm considering a Diesel for my next vehicle and am not too sure about the whole billowing black smoke as you drive thing.<br /><br />Sean

 

[stan_deezy]

Re: A Diesel Question

The new ones have particulate filters which do a pretty good job of removing the particles that cause the black smoke. You maybe saw a badly maintained car, high miler etc.<br />Ours only cough a bit of black smoke under very hard acceleration (and I mean, very hard!).

 

[JB]

Re: A Diesel Question

The mechanically injected Diesels do that. When you open the throttle the pump goes to higher fuel amounts before the airflow catches up and you get an over-rich mix temporarily.<br /><br />Modern, common rail DFI engines are computer controlled and increase fuel only slightly ahead of air volume. This is very important in turbocharged engines, as the air volume varies over a much larger range than the old, naturally aspirated engines. You will still be rich temporarily, but not nearly as rich as the old tech engines. That is one of the factors that make new diesels so much more efficient and more powerful.<br /><br />With the introduction of mandatory low-sulphur fuel next year (it has been around for years as superdiesel) we should be able to get some of the very efficient and powerful Diesels common in Europe. <br /><br />Mercedes has several, including a plug-in turbodiesel electric hybrid version of the Smart that gets 80mpg IF you use the engine, which is not needed at all for short trips. Now someone must convince them that Americans would actually buy them.

 

[DJ]

Re: A Diesel Question

Ditto, JB. Especailly about the part that mentions, "if Americans will buy them".<br /><br />Every automaker has diesels, "ready for the US market". <br /><br />Diesel has the following problems.<br /><br />1. A smell, "objectionable" to many US consumers.<br /><br />2. Repeat #1.<br /><br />3. A reputation for being slow, unreliable and expensive. GM, secured the "diesel death" in the eighties with garbage engines.<br /><br />Ford had BMW, Toyo Kogyo (Mazda), International and Ford "real", diesels at the same time. They were VERY reliable and had great power. The diesel market (cars) had been, by then-wrecked-in the US.<br /><br />Diesels, like Hybrids, are NOT for everybody. <br /><br />You have to understand what you have.<br /><br />Toyota and Honda have got themselves in a bit of a "pickle" with the Hybrids. Fuel economy predictions are NOT what they were claiming. Why? Because Americans want performance. If you put your foot in it, the engine runs. Or, if the A/C is on, the engine runs.<br /><br />Ford avoided the "pickle" by understating the fuel economy performance of the Escape hybrid.<br /><br />Would I buy a diesel car, SUV, or truck? You betcha. But, I would know what I have. Todays direct injected, common fuel rail sytems are very good. No smoke, no lag.<br /><br />Diesel truck resale is quite high. Diesel car resale is still in the tank. Knowing that going in, you can make your own decision.

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: A Diesel Question

They need to fix the noise issue as well.<br /><br />I personally hate the smell of a diesel and wont drive one. I hate getting caught in traffic with a diesel near me.<br /><br />Ken

 

[DJ]

Re: A Diesel Question

Diesel and Hybrid are "stopgap" measures, at best.<br /><br />The real answer to absolutely "no emmisions" is nuclear/electric.<br /><br />Hybrids are a "testbed" for the electric drive systems. What supplies the electrical power is still a question.<br /><br />Hydrogen ain't it-for the long run.<br /><br />As the "sixties" anti-nukies die off, we can get serious.

 

[QC]

Re: A Diesel Question

Originally posted by DJ:<br /> The real answer to absolutely "no emmisions" is nuclear/electric.

Wow, I don't know about that . . . <br /><br />

Originally posted by DJ:<br />Hydrogen ain't it-for the long run.

Or the short and medium run either. The fuel of the future and it always will be . . . <br /><br />The diesels that are coming are very good. I rented a diesel 5 Series BMW on my last trip to Europe. Absolutely perfect car. There will still be the smell when fueling, but it doesn't leave any smoke etc. The issue for Diesel engines is NOx. They just can't get down where Gasoline engines are. This is why you can't get most of them in CA. The Low Sulfur stuff does not solve the NOx issues, only allows for use of Catalysts and Part traps, which solve Hydrocarbons and Particulates. Fact is that Gasoline engines are "cleaner" and Diesels are "greener" i.e. they create fewer carbon based emssions because they are better on fuel.

 

[noelm]

Re: A Diesel Question

had a few diesel Toyota Landcruisers in my time and the new engines are not noisey by any means and unlike old generation diesels when you "put your foot down" they do actually go and not just blow smoke and make a louder noise like old ones did, the turbo 4.2 litre goes as good as any petrol engine and achieves good fuel economy

 

[DJ]

Re: A Diesel Question

Hey, I didn't say diesel was dead, just not the LONG RUN answer.<br /><br />See what I mean, say "nuclear" and all people think of is mushroom clouds.<br /><br />The anti nukes have done a fabulous job of brainwashing the public.

 

[SpinnerBait_Nut]

Re: A Diesel Question

Nuclear is good.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: A Diesel Question

The long run of Diesel is that it can be adapted to run other types of fuel easily. Some fuels it can run on cleaner and better than current Diesel fuel.<br />A lot that currently run on Diesel would be good candidates for natural gas, a renewable fuel.<br /><br />

See what I mean, say "nuclear" and all people think of is mushroom clouds.<br />

Or radioactive waste.

 

[JB]

Re: A Diesel Question

Huh?? Natural gas renewable? Don't we wish. I think you meant something different than that, Skinny.<br /><br />I think all plant-based fuels could be considered renewable, such as methane, methanol, ethanol, jojoba oil, many nut and seed oils, "wood gas", "coal gas", etc.<br /><br />Otto cycle (spark) engines can run on most of those, Diesels or steam engines on all of them.<br /><br />I would agree with DJ on Nuclear/electric, but the technology has a few major hurdles:<br /><br />Fission reactors make deadly waste materials that we have no bulletproof way to neutralize or dispose of. A working fusion reactor is still somewhere in the future.<br /><br />Current electrical storage devices can't store enough energy in small enough space to provide enough range to purely electric vehicles.<br /><br />What I see for the short term is plug-in turbodiesel/electric hybrids using vegetable based fuel.

 

[QC]

Re: A Diesel Question

DJ,<br /><br />I support increased use of Nuclear, but for power generation not on-board a vehicle , which is what I thought you were proposing. Sorry if I misunderstood.<br /><br />JB,<br /><br />Methane IS Nat-gas, Coal-gas, Wood-gas etc. and is also renewable from Landfills and Bio-mass, however, I don't think in really siginificant qty's. The Europeans are really getting good at Bio-mass and we are getting pretty good at recovering high-quality methane from Landfills (LFG). Generally I agree with you though. Nat-gas is a fossil fuel.<br /><br />The "bio-diesel" type oils you describe are expensive without major subsidies and are not as good as believed. There are major ambient temperature issues etc. 20% blends with diesel (B20) work well.<br /><br />It is easier to run any gasseous fuel in an Otto enigne than a diesel, but my company is very good at it, the best in the world. Methanol is too corrosive, forget it. Almost all gave up on it in the 80's. Ethanol is good, but back to the subsidies and diesels hate it.<br /><br />You are dead-on about batteries.<br /><br />Diesel-hybrids ONLY work in an application with extreme braking. Will not do anything for line-haul vehicles. You are way better off with an efficient mechanical drive system. Most diesel-hybrid applications in busses today are proving to be no more efficient than their diesel only siblings, and those busses DO have significant braking losses, so there is a long way to go. Also, they cost a lot more than a natural gas bus, which are proving to be pretty good finally. Most of those are Otto.<br /><br />With that said, the short to medium term approach that I support is more natural gas for vehicles (our business model) to help extend petroleum reserves and balance out the haves from the have nots (oil). More nuclear for power-gen to reduce the amount of a reasonably good vehicle fuel (nat-gas) used in that application. Long term? Not sure yet. Hydrogen is waaaaaaay out if at all.

 

[JB]

Re: A Diesel Question

I should not have listed "coal gas" as it is also a depletable fossil fuel.<br /><br />Methane? Yes, QC, it is a component of depletable fossil natural gas. I was referring to methane from renewable sources.<br /><br />I was also thinking in the narrow application of private passenger vehicles. Certainly OTR and other commercial vehicles have different requirements. Railroad locomotives are not hybrid, but the diesel/electric package works fairly well for them.<br /><br />Yes, with the current lack of efficiencies of scale the production of most alternative fuels is relatively expensive. Brazil has proved that it needn't be, for ethanol at least. Being held hostage to foreign supply is a cost beyond calculating.<br /><br />While I agree that nuclear fission reactors are an efficient alternative to fossil fuel fires for generating electricity, I still worry about the byproducts and the depletability of fuel sources. We cannot grow Uranium and we cannot render Plutonium harmless.<br /><br />I prefer to look at natural forces and processes as energy sources. Gravity, tides, sunlight, wind and earth sources of heat all offer non-depletable, nonpolluting sources from which to extract electrical energy. There are also myriad opportunities to use energy more efficiently.<br /><br />Maybe the sudden and drastic reduction of supply and growth in cost of fossil fuels will trigger some real commitment to developing better alternatives.<br /><br />Darned glad I will live in Texas this winter, and I hope it is a warm one even here.

 

[KM2]

Re: A Diesel Question

If it's the Jeep Liberty CRD your are considering I don't think you'll see any of those "old diesel" problems. A CRD drove by me the other day while I was on the sidewalk and you wouldn't know it was a diesel until you saw the CRD on the back. <br /><br />With the success of this vehicle hopefully Jeep will bring a diesel Wrangler, Grand Cherokee and commander to the US.<br /><br />FYI: In Minnesota now all diesel sold is B2 or 2% biodiesel.

 

[eeboater]

Re: A Diesel Question

Hey KM2,<br /><br />You read my mind - wow. I'm glad to hear that. I haven't seen and Liberty Diesels lately. My in-laws just bought a new liberty and they had a diesel one on the lot for about $2000 more. If thats the case when I'm shopping, I'm thinking I will definitely consider it.<br /><br />Sean

 

[KM2]

Re: A Diesel Question

Not many Lib diesels around a few months back, now my local dealer has 8 or 9 on his lot. You will start to see more of them.

 

[treedancer]

Re: A Diesel Question

Was in Costco last Friday soy oil was selling for about seventy cents a quart..Being that it was Costco you had to buy it several quarts at a time think that would work in a diesel auto?

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: A Diesel Question

fuels could be considered renewable, such as methane

That's what I'm talking about JB.

 

[wajajaja]

Re: A Diesel Question

can veg oil be mix with diesle in the tank and what ratio. <br /> I have looked to a dual fuel system, greasecar.com looks good, just wondered if disel and corn mix well.<br /> think ill put some of each in a jar and see.